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How to Read and Defuse The Fear in Selling With Dan Hill

Decode their faces to keep your sales on pace

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People-Reading Tips you'll learn today on The Sales Podcast...

  • Ph.D. in English
  • Lived in Italy and didn't know the language so he learned how to read people.
  • 1998 he was at IBM and was sent an article on how emotional we are as decision-makers
  • "What customers can't say" by David Wolf
  • At least 95% of our mental activity is not fully conscious...lots of gut reactions
  • We're all in sales
  • Sales is a fear-filled environment
    • The salesperson is afraid of losing the sale
    • The prospect is afraid of being the prey
    • Fear is not conducive to communication
  • Develop affinity before/during the presentation


  • It's more than mirroring
Sales is a fear-filled environment. You must read it and defuse it."
  • Read their faces
  • Are they looking at their watches?
  • Look at the room. Look for photos. Inquire about them. If they're a striver they'll be happy to discuss.
  • You're looking for context.
  • We are only dimly aware of ourselves
  • "By the age of 50 a man has the face he deserves."
  • What's the give and take like?
  • You're either flexible or you're roadkill
  • Facial coding is reasonably simple yet powerful enough
  • 7 core emotions
    • Happiness
    • Surprise
    • Anger
    • Fear
    • Sadness
    • Disgust
    • Contempt
    • 23 expressions that cover these seven emotions
  • Striver or Hothead
  • Natural skeptic (smirk, contempt)
  • Ambiguous situations (UCLA study)
    • 55% of the true communication comes from the face
    • 7% from the words
  • The average person tells 4-5 lies per day
  • Body language can tell you something but it's not as detailed as facial expressions
  • Body language can be faked more easily
  • Body language can be affected by gender and culture
  • "Lie to Me" was pretty accurate
  • Lots of fear in the Jacksons could be seen when they were young
  • Bio-feedback looks at only two muscles and botox hinders
  • Now he looks at 44 muscles on both sides of the face in symmetry
  • He was out-numbered in negotiation with Toyota
    • One was drifting off
    • Your emotions turn on when you care
  • He was doing work in 2012 in the Mexican Presidential debate
    • He had a 100-person sample that watched the debate
    • He realized who the strongest opponent was
  • Happiness and anger are about 70% of a person's emotions
  • 9 ways to show anger
    • Eyebrows pinched together and lower
    • Mouth pursing together (maybe they're confused)
    • "Snake eyes" with the eyes going narrow
    • If the mouth comes together so strongly that there's a bulge in the lower lip
  • Voice is similar to body language so it's not quite as accurate
  • The difference between a smile and a smirk is profitability

Links Mentioned In The Sales Podcast

  • Get Dan Hill's books at Sensory Logic
  • Faces of the Week blog
  • "Famous Faces Decoded"

Wes Schaeffer: Dan Hill p hd all the way from Minneapolis. Welcome to the sales podcast. How the heck are you
Dan Hill: Doing fine thanks class.
Wes Schaeffer: So Three's a charm. How we we reschedule for my coronavirus and we reschedule because frontier can't keep the internet running but man can keep a good man down. Can we
Dan Hill: Know, now we're not giving
Wes Schaeffer: So how do you go from studying English to studying people. So you've written eight books here. The most recent IS FAMOUS FACES decoded a guidebook for reading others what what brought about that transition because that seems like a big transition
Dan Hill: Yes and no. I mean, in one sense it's a simple movement because I lived in Italy for two years as a boy, my father worked for the 3am company.
Dan Hill: When you are going to Italian first grade in a fishing village and you do not know the language.
Dan Hill: Guess what, you have a lot of time to study the people in the classroom because you can't participate, you can't do the subjects, other than math.
Dan Hill: So anytime you're in a strange environment. I think you just naturally pay attention if you got any smarts to you at all.
Dan Hill: But I guess the professional reason would be that in 1998 someone I knew at IBM sent over an article about the breakthroughs in brain science confirmation that we are indeed.
Dan Hill: Emotional decision makers, I think sales people know that. But here was the proof in the pudding.
Dan Hill: And I was absolutely fascinated. My hands were trembling with interest. When I finished reading the article I decided I had to go into this field. I wasn't quite sure how but I was going to pursue it.
Wes Schaeffer: Interesting. So do you remember the exact article
Dan Hill: Yes, it's called what customers. Can't say by David Wolfe and a Cornell University publication called American demographics.
Dan Hill: Once I followed up on probably the most striking statistic that conservative estimation is that at least 95% of our mental activity isn't fully conscious
Dan Hill: In other words, we are driven by all these gut reactions that we are only dimly aware of
Dan Hill: And quite honestly there's just made a lot of sense to me. But in business people were still talking about the unique selling proposition and rational decision making. And I thought, well, that's part of the picture, but my god there's a whole lot more going on.
Wes Schaeffer: So were you in sales at the time.
Dan Hill: No, I was not. But I would say that we're all in sales. We have switched over our boss, our colleagues.
Dan Hill: Right back when I was high school I
Dan Hill: Created the soccer program. So I had to lobby the athletic director in the school board and then eventually and running my company. Of course, you have to be a salesperson, you're in charge of the company. You got to make sure that the deals closed and you you honor the contracts.
Wes Schaeffer: So 95%
Wes Schaeffer: So when you get into reading people
Wes Schaeffer: Mean, obviously you have to have a presentation. You've got to have contents, at least at your fingertips, or that you can recall. But, you know, are you advocating more of
Wes Schaeffer: Just let let the customer of the customer think they're driving and kind of guides the sale sales conversation based on their input or can you, can you show up with a framework and and steer the sales negotiation within that framework.
Dan Hill: Well, I think the really first important thing about sales is that it's a fear filled environment as the salesperson. You come afraid that you might be wasting your time.
Dan Hill: And effort that this is someone who's not going to buy and the prospect potential buyer.
Dan Hill: runs the risk of feeling like they're, you know, being preyed on that you're the predator.
Dan Hill: That you're going to push really hard and you're going to bombard them with phone calls and follow up emails and so forth. Fear is not a good
Dan Hill: It's not very conducive to communication because you tend to freeze up
Dan Hill: When you're afraid. So I think the first thing is to try to remove that fear. So yes, you run through the presentation, but in many ways, just as important or more important as before you get to the presentation.
Dan Hill: How do you develop affinity. One of things I tend to do is say, you know, where you're from, where'd you grow up, where'd you go to school.
Dan Hill: I'm looking for some way in which you know I've been in that town. I know someone who went to that school, some way which you can find commonalities, because it's not just mirroring their expressions.
Dan Hill: Their attitude in the meeting. It's really getting a sense of who they are and see if you can match up in some way.
Wes Schaeffer: So do you get into like the disk profiles and stuff because I'm you know I was taught all the same things right, but as a consumer,
Wes Schaeffer: I'm a Heidi. I don't like all the chitchat and I know, I know the games.
Wes Schaeffer: Right. Oh, you're gonna oh you find out in the Air Force and your next door neighbors, best friends barber his son was in the Air Force. Therefore, we should be like best friends. And, you know, let's just throw everything away for some bourbon and
Wes Schaeffer: You know, let me just give you all my money. So, I mean,
Wes Schaeffer: I don't like the chit chat as a consumer, even as the salesperson. Right, I'll do it because I know there's some benefit there, but I do try to have it come out more naturally
Wes Schaeffer: But
Wes Schaeffer: Can can backfire. You know when you're dealing with the goal oriented task oriented, you know, high D or, you know, the this the S types you know the the very analytical
Dan Hill: I think that's a fair concern. I mean, really,
Dan Hill: For me, one of the advantages of asking any
Dan Hill: Questions is a chance for their talking rather than me presenting right away and I had a chance to sit back a little bit and see how they're emoting
Dan Hill: So someone who's a real driver real analytical type I might see more anger on their face anger as an emotion is about. I want to be in control of my circumstances, I want to make progress. I might be impatient with the chitchat
Dan Hill: So to me, I certainly don't come in or I haven't come in and the 20 plus years. I brought my company and say let's talk about the weather.
Dan Hill: Yeah, I think where they went to school where they grow up, how long they've been with the company, you know, if that string feels natural and works. Well, that's fine.
Dan Hill: But I don't want to belabor it and if I get a sense of, there's someone who just, you know, I'm busy. They're looking at their watch their expression tells me this is not the way to go.
Dan Hill: You adjust you pivot and you move more toward the presentation. But again, at least some sort of warm up. I know when I was in corporate life.
Dan Hill: I did not like the vendors who came in and didn't get any sense of who I was, or objectives or goals and learning or why we invited them why they got through the filter.
Dan Hill: And they just launched into the 40 minute presentation, starting with who they are, why they were so important and wonderful in the world and no sense of our needs or interests and I just thought that was offensive. So that's why I don't like to barrel right into the egocentric presentation.
Wes Schaeffer: Yeah, are you reading the room as well like looking for is their artwork or their trophies, you know, family, is there a plant. I mean, to those things give clues
Dan Hill: I'm certainly. I mean, being a facial coding naturally like the family portrait or photograph of them with someone within the company now.
Dan Hill: They haven't had a CEOs.
Dan Hill: Photograph and they're getting an award from the CEO and the desk, you know, asking why, what was the accomplishment. Most people, even if they're busy.
Dan Hill: Maybe, especially if they're a striver would be happy to answer that kind of question. For instance, but yes. What they have in the room.
Dan Hill: Always reveals things you're looking for context. After all, context as to who they are, why they want to talk to you how you can help them and he that allows your comments to be more on the mark. I don't like the boilerplate presentation, any more than I like to boil point chitty chat.
Wes Schaeffer: Yeah. Amen. So, or other obvious things, right, because you know they talking about so much as done unconsciously, are we are we, scowling or squinting or smiling without even knowing that we're doing it.
Dan Hill: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, we are only dimly
Dan Hill: Aware of ourselves.
Dan Hill: After all, it's definitely human predicament. How often in life you know after relationship that goes bad, all your friends go I wondered what you saw, and so and so and then you go yeah I wanted to, but at the time you were you're jumping headfirst into the pool.
Dan Hill: So yes, there are probably two things to take into account. First is what's kind of their baseline people do have signature expressions or things they fall back on.
Dan Hill: The writer George Orwell said by the age of 50 a man has the face. He deserves.
Dan Hill: We have muscle memory we have things we just kind of gravitate to. So, do I have a fairly happy camper. Do I have a grouch. Do I have someone who's really focused and conscientious
Dan Hill: That's really good to know. And then I can see if they move off that baseline.
Dan Hill: On the other hand, it's also the given take. So, you know, I thought, I'm commenting on certain things in the presentation.
Dan Hill: Or answering their questions for their objections, how are they taking it. What is their emotions in the moment in response to that specific aspect of the conversation.
Dan Hill: That's really valuable information because again you have to adjust your either flexible your roadkill as far as I'm concerned.
Wes Schaeffer: All right.
Wes Schaeffer: I'll accept that.
Wes Schaeffer: So not chitty chat that's getting right down to the basics.
Wes Schaeffer: Your they're flexible or your road guy. I gotta make sure I'm right. I just type that out. So, how hard is this to learn, though, because I don't want
Wes Schaeffer: My people, you know, just staring at what is Dan doing. Oh, he's flicking is here. Oh, he's twinkling his nose, you know, and they lose sight of like the whole reason you're meeting.
Wes Schaeffer: You know, can this be learns easily or does it take a long time. Are there are little things we can learn that that like I say small ever swing big doors.
Dan Hill: No, no, that's, that's a good way to put it. First of all, the year, you know, which is probably nothing important so I wouldn't bother with trivialities
Dan Hill: Facial coding. I like because it's reasonably
Dan Hill: Complicated enough that it's got some real nuance to it. And it's also reasonably simple enough that it's not like I'm dragging around, you know hundred pound weight into a meeting.
Dan Hill: There are seven core emotions that you can access through facial coding. There's happiness. Of course you want that because you are ultimately selling hope.
Dan Hill: That they want to be happy. They're hoping to be happy surprise is really important because your eyes go wider, for instance.
Dan Hill: When you're surprised. You want a meeting with someone who's paying attention. Who's inquisitive, who's eager for the information and solution. You might bring
Dan Hill: So you got a positive emotion you got essentially in neutral emotion surprise because it can swing. Either way, it can be. I got a new car for Christmas.
Dan Hill: I got a new car accident on the way home from work. So surprise can go either way. And then you got five emotions that you have the upside. So we probably think of them is negative emotions.
Dan Hill: And those are anger, fear, sadness disgust and contempt. There are
Dan Hill: Expressions that cover these seven emotions. So I said there's a little bit of complexity, but I think of it as flexibility is nuance.
Dan Hill: But yeah, we're not talking 97 ways to pick up something, you know, that's crazy. Nobody and keep track of that.
Dan Hill: And furthermore, to your question, I would say. Once you get a baseline for someone, you might see that there are certain emotions that really tend to stand out for them.
Dan Hill: Maybe they're a striver maybe they're a hothead, then you're probably in the category of anger and there's someone who's just a natural skeptic.
Dan Hill: Well that's worth knowing to they might show a smirk. They might show contempt. If trust is the emotion of business contempt is opposite. So you're really want to know if someone's just dubious about you because now you got frankly a, you know, big hill to climb.
Wes Schaeffer: And
Wes Schaeffer: Do the
Wes Schaeffer: You know, body language and or verbal expressions can they be out of sync. Can they, you know, are you looking at everything. Are you focusing on the face.
Wes Schaeffer: You know, can they can they be saying one thing you know maybe nice sounding words but they're, you know, angry faces.
Dan Hill: Oh, absolutely. There was a study done by UCLA professor
Dan Hill: When he called ambiguous situations which definitely include sales situations as well as the first date.
Dan Hill: And what the person concluded the professor is that in those situations 55% of the true communication comes from the face.
Dan Hill: 37% from the voice the tone and merely 7% from the words and, you know, if you've never been lied to in life, West, you know, congratulations, you're either really lucky, you're, you're not paying attention. National Geographic ran a special article few years ago on lying.
Dan Hill: Turns out the average person tells about four to five lives a day. And that's not when they're in a sales meeting. So, you know, it goes on all the time.
Dan Hill: other part of your question was, you know, facial expressions vs body language body language can certainly tell you something, but it's got some problems with it.
Dan Hill: One is it doesn't have the specificity of facial coding. I can tell whether you're open your submissive your defensive. So I got kind of three categories versus seven
Dan Hill: That's one issue because I don't have as much richness of input. The next thing is it can be faked more easily.
Dan Hill: You know, just watch the politicians during a presidential debate, you know, the rollout certain hand gestures that they were coached to do by the consultant
Dan Hill: You know, and none of us believes them. And the third problem is it can be affected by gender and by culture.
Dan Hill: You know, a hand gesture, that's fine and Brussels might get you killed in Sicily, for instance. So yeah, we're someone's coming from in life can also be a real difference. So the face is universal, even a person born blind emotes the same way as you are. I
Wes Schaeffer: Right. Interesting. Yeah, we were
Wes Schaeffer: I forget what my son called it, but he spent a semester in India and I flew out to see him and they Indians back when they're, when they're happy, or just just talking their head. They'll Bob left and right, almost like a no.
Wes Schaeffer: And in one time we were so confused. We were in this in this castle, you know in in touring it and it was kind of blocked off this one exit, but not really. And, and I was trying to ask the guy. I was like, can we go that way.
Wes Schaeffer: And he was smiling and kind of Bob and his head, left and right, and I'm like, Oh, no, we can't go that way. And my son starts laughing and and
Wes Schaeffer: Basically, the guy was saying, yes, he was smiling and the head was kind of left to right, but I'm picking up the body language and Jake's like
Wes Schaeffer: You gotta look at the smile and in his body was kind of opening up. Like, I guess, go and but then he said, they all learned that, you know, being living there, you know, and but it was just one little thing that I experienced culturally
Wes Schaeffer: That's, that's just how they communicate, you know, and
Wes Schaeffer: So it's good that you bring it up, you know, gender and culture and because even if you know we're in America, but
Wes Schaeffer: The guy could be an immigrant right and still have still have the demeanor i don't i don't change because I wouldn't visit India. I don't change how I conduct myself because it's it's ingrained in us.
Wes Schaeffer: So the. Did you ever watch that show what was a lie to me was that any good. I never really watched it.
Dan Hill: Well, and, in fact, the leading expert modern expert on facial coding
Dan Hill: Is a man named Dr. Paul Ekman, who is an advisor for the
Dan Hill: Show. So yeah. Usually most episodes. There's at least one thing that's a bit outlandish, you couldn't really see expression from that far away, or that quickly or at that angle.
Dan Hill: But mostly it was pretty accurate because once you get this down. It certainly makes you, you know, maybe you're not quite Sherlock Holmes, but at least you're not Watson anymore. You do get an awful lot better.
Wes Schaeffer: So do you win every poker tournament.
Dan Hill: Nobody plays cards with me. I'm not a bad card player to start with and then I have an extra advantage. Most times I end up just playing blackjack. The last time was in Rotterdam. I honestly this happened. I won the first
Dan Hill: I think it was 11 hands.
Dan Hill: So after three hands, the two guys I was with said, We're not playing. We're just betting on your hand and when I lost the 11th or 12th. What I walked away with my money.
Wes Schaeffer: Nice.
Wes Schaeffer: So,
Wes Schaeffer: So is it, is it really you don't play your cards you you're playing the other person.
Dan Hill: Well, when I play blackjack. I have some real particular rules. I only play with a female dealer.
Dan Hill: I only taken if I can be in the fourth or fifth spot. So I have enough time to kind of get used to the hand and think about it a bit. I don't want to be rushed
Dan Hill: And I won't take a place where there's a lot of onlookers as a lot of foot traffic behind me. I don't want the distractions. I want to concentrate on the task at hand. So, you know, the facial coding doesn't really helped me much.
Dan Hill: I mean, I look a little bit of the other players but I'm really playing my hand.
Wes Schaeffer: Yeah, like jags different but like me and poker, you know, they say, You're not playing your hand you're playing the other person.
Dan Hill: Oh yeah, no. When I have played poker. Absolutely. I mean, I was flowing in by Discovery Channel one time to watch
Dan Hill: I'll call them semi professional poker players they got together once a week, but they played for pretty serious table stakes.
Dan Hill: One guy out of the five really had a pretty flat effect. I wouldn't have gained much from facial coding playing him.
Dan Hill: But the other four to one degree or another, and some of them were like slam dunk giveaways, I would have made nice money if I'd been given a seat at the table, but I was there to observe and say what I found hand by hand for the evening.
Wes Schaeffer: Yeah, that's, I don't know a lot about poker, man. I know the fundamentals, but I don't play and, you know, watching it on TV. I think it's such a crock.
Wes Schaeffer: That they let them wear sunglasses and hoodies and headphones, like, oh yeah, dude, you got to take that stuff off. This is mano a mano. You know that because they can hide so much behind all that. Yeah.
Dan Hill: No. Yeah. At that point, you're almost like you know the same thing needs to be true with Michael Jackson. People say, can you facially code Michael Jackson. And I was like, after 20 surgeries. No.
Dan Hill: There is no natural muscle movement left on that face sufficient for me to code you and tell you what emotions, he's feeling
Dan Hill: Yeah. And if I looked at earlier in his career. I can see a lot of fear and Michael Jackson and then his famous siblings, because they had a very abusive father who year round through really tough practice sessions and it really you know infiltrated into their life and their expressions.
Wes Schaeffer: Well, that brings up a good point there is so much plastic surgery now facelift and Botox. Does that hinder your ability to read
Dan Hill: Well, I used to use
Dan Hill: biofeedback as well. And that was a problem because with biofeedback you're only looking at two muscle movements.
Dan Hill: The core gator. And as I go matic the smiling from muscle. So Botox and, you know, disable the frown muscle activity and that was bad news that was half the data.
Dan Hill: But with facial coding, you're looking at 44 muscles on the face 40 for each side of the face, you know, in cemetery. So that's a lot more opportunities. So yes, you run some risk at times.
Dan Hill: That you know Botox or plastic surgery is taking away some of your data set. Yeah, it happens, but you're going to work with what you can work with, you know, we all face our challenges in life, and it is what it is.
Wes Schaeffer: Tell me a good story, tell me a deal you negotiated that like you shouldn't have one but you did because this helped
Dan Hill: Well, I guess the one I tend to think about was Toyota because they had about five, six.
Dan Hill: People in the room. So I was outnumbered.
Dan Hill: By degrees. I figured out who was the decision maker because they didn't make it obvious to me and about partway through the meeting. I saw the guy was drifting off.
Dan Hill: One of the things that's important is not just what people show in their face, it's also what they don't show
Dan Hill: Because your emotions turned on. When you care about the outcome and you care about the other people in the room. So he had gone to a totally flat aspect.
Dan Hill: And I realized I was going to have to do something. So I just dropped my usual patter
Dan Hill: And I thought of a question I don't recall it anymore. It's 15 years ago I thought of the question that brought him back into the conversation.
Dan Hill: He started paying attention. He was intrigued with the answer I gave us the dialogue kept going and I got the deal.
Dan Hill: But probably my favorite story involves actually in a foreign country. I was doing work in 2012 on the Mexican presidential race.
Dan Hill: So there's our blissfully shorter than ours. There was just one debate I watched one room of 25 voters live. They taped three other rooms with 25 voters each 100 person sample.
Dan Hill: And I wanted to see basically they were the buyers, they're going to buy one of these candidates and my vendor or by my customers that were
Dan Hill: Dot that there was a candidate, the one who is from the incumbent party who is likely to win. And they were trading all of their artillery on this person.
Dan Hill: And in the presentation. I said, No, no, no. You need to focus on Obrador you're going to beat him, but he really did well with the voters and he's going to cut your margin and half your lead in half.
Dan Hill: And the key guy in the meeting, said Mr. Hill, you're, you're wrong. In fact, you're, you're dead wrong.
Dan Hill: You're not from Mexico. You don't know the country, you don't know the issues, why you don't even know Spanish
Dan Hill: And I said, Well, it's true that I haven't studied Spanish since high school. But I, I saw what I saw. It turns out I was half a percentage point off. That's it. So that's not too bad. That's a long way from dead wrong. Yeah.
Dan Hill: And believe me, I thought about sending him an email afterwards saying, who's right, who's wrong, but I didn't do that.
Wes Schaeffer: Yeah, sometimes. Let that sleeping dogs lie.
Wes Schaeffer: On the like on that one on Toyota. I mean, seeing someone just drifting off. I mean, is that that's not really reading faces. I mean, that's just and that just basic human nature. I can just see somebody board that I'm losing them.
Dan Hill: Yes, but the key thing is once you start to reel in the fish to they stay on the hook. So yes, the facial coding was not a not so operatives there.
Dan Hill: Although I had to disengage from the other people. And it meant that I was being visually oriented because I had a lot of distractions in the room being said about numbers.
Dan Hill: Now the really key thing to the facial coding is once you start to try to move it through the conversation threading the needle.
Dan Hill: So let's go back to anger, because obviously happiness is a wonderful emotion, it means that they are embracing you hugging they're open to consideration.
Dan Hill: But anger is the other heavyweight emotion here because happiness and anger combined are about 70% of the average person's emoting
Dan Hill: So the other five emotions are kind of like extra flavorings but they're not the meat on the platter. So anger is really important because for one thing.
Dan Hill: There's nine different ways anger can show in the face. Let's take a couple of these flavors. If the eyebrows pinch together and lower
Dan Hill: That's a pretty acceptable version of anger, because it means they're concentrating quite possibly
Dan Hill: But if I see the concentration, combined with the mouth person the lips pressing together that probably means I've shipped over from them concentrating to actually being confused instead
Dan Hill: Because again, anger is I want to be in control of my destiny. I want to make progress. If you don't feel like you understand what's going on or your understand the answer you're just given, then you don't feel like you're in control of things. So that's a really important nuance to pull
Dan Hill: Out of out of the findings, do the eyes go narrow, that's what I call snake eyes, you know, they can be like kind of staring you down doubting you challenging you not bleeding, what you just told them.
Dan Hill: As a salesperson. You better be pretty alert to that the mouth, you know, pressing together the lips that that's okay, maybe a little bit worrisome.
Dan Hill: What's definitely worries some it's that the mouth holds together sufficiently that there's a bolt below the middle of the lower lip that voltage told tells you that getting peeved. And I can tell you in a sales situation once I was in Toronto was meeting with
Dan Hill: I think it was not Best Buy was home depot and the guy got that expression on his face. I pushed too hard to get the incumbent out of the way.
Dan Hill: I picked it up. I try without directly acknowledging it to figure out ways to soften the conversation to overcome that moment. Didn't work could not salvage the deal. He never took my follow up email or phone call what I saw, is what I saw. And I was, I was cooked.
Wes Schaeffer: Now you know
Dan Hill: Now, I know.
Dan Hill: You can press with you can press too hard. That's the difficult dance as a salesperson because statistically, as I'm sure you know better than most you know the sixth, seventh, eighth meeting or contact
Dan Hill: That's statistically where you close the deal.
Dan Hill: And the salesperson, of course, after about two or three times starts panicking wondering whether they should give up or not.
Dan Hill: And yet you have to be like the velvet glove. You have to be persistent and resilient, but you can't be a pest and that's why reading these nine different forms of anger is so important because anger can show they're really getting their backup and you got to be able to read that.
Wes Schaeffer: Can you pick up as much over the phone. I mean, with this whole thing, more and more people are going to video calls, which I imagine you appreciate
Wes Schaeffer: Can we pick up emotions on the phone just with voice.
Dan Hill: You can. The problem with voices. You can't get to the specificity.
Dan Hill: And you're kind of back into body language territory, you get some feeling for things, but not to the degree of accuracy. You'd long for
Dan Hill: I mean I think any of us who've tried to close things by phone, you're, you're seeing how much energy there is in their voice, you're looking for the are listening for the pauses.
Dan Hill: You're looking for how declarative. They are so you can get into. You know how the senses are structured. There's all sorts of things you can look for. But yes, it is zoom and Skype a godsend in my line of work. Absolutely. It's a wonderful thing, not
Dan Hill: kovats not a wonderful thing, but the
Dan Hill: The prevalence of zoom zooming up thanks to covert that is a good thing.
Wes Schaeffer: Yeah. Amen.
Wes Schaeffer: So you got eight books, so about face emotional makes you most recent so famous faces decoded a guidebook for reading others.
Wes Schaeffer: Is it's do we send them to your website. It's sensory logic calm right ya.
Dan Hill: Know they would be able to order the books from that. But I also have a blog called faces of the week.
Dan Hill: Oh, the nice little easy primer for anyone in sales and doesn't have a lot of time. I keep it to three paragraphs or less.
Dan Hill: And every week. I'm taking some news story, and I'm examining the the emotions that are exhibited on the face.
Dan Hill: And to the right side of those blog postings is an easy way to order the books. So it's called faces of the week, or you can access it through emotions wizard calm.
Dan Hill: And frankly, it ties in as you keep going through the blog past the three paragraphs, you'll see what my podcast episode is for the week because I do something called Dan hills EQ spotlight.
Dan Hill: And I have
Dan Hill: Guest on who are really offered exploring the role of emotions and business.
Wes Schaeffer: Very cool.
Wes Schaeffer: All right, I will link to those. Oh, you got the, the attorney couple in St. Louis.
Dan Hill: I do indeed.
Wes Schaeffer: Came out with their guns.
Dan Hill: Yeah. Well, when I first looked at a guy because I'm a
Dan Hill: Something about fan of the movie deliverance. He made me think of the net baby character, but when I sell you this close his face more closely. There wasn't here. They're actually
Wes Schaeffer: Right.
Dan Hill: There was a little bit of a smile, he was kind of enjoying the moment. Yeah, cradling his God, his wife. On the other hand, was bit more stressed out. Yeah, she she was angrier and more fearful.
Wes Schaeffer: Yeah. Well, that makes sense to send the situation.
Wes Schaeffer: But yeah, I mean, when you really look at it. Yeah, he's not freaked out.
No he's not.
Dan Hill: A lot of things in life come down to us versus them. Yeah, that's the difficult thing in sales, because you're just coming through the door, but you're trying to talk about. We and the solution will get to
Dan Hill: But, you know, whether its political racial your company versus my company. There's a lot of us them in the world.
Dan Hill: That's one of the reasons why we have to be facial coders, you have to figure out who's friend or foe, or who could become a friend.
Dan Hill: Right LBJ that
Dan Hill: You know, former president said if you can't walk into the room and know who's WITH YOU AND WHO'S AGAINST YOU YOU AIN'T WORTH spit as a politician.
Wes Schaeffer: Yeah.
Dan Hill: Now you can call facial coding the spit test if you'd like.
Wes Schaeffer: Do you think like
Wes Schaeffer: That good salespeople just kind of know a lot of this intuitively
Dan Hill: I
Wes Schaeffer: teach it, but I feel like I'm good at this. I can't teach it like you but
Wes Schaeffer: I feel like I've done this, you know, kind of read the room. Read the person know when the shift gears.
Dan Hill: No, yeah, I think anyone who's successful at this is going to have to have first of all for themselves emotional resiliency to take the nose.
Dan Hill: But yes, they better be aware of their environment. You can't just turn on your presentation, like it's a fire hose and think that's going to work well.
Dan Hill: My father was in charge of three M's printed posted notes production sales and marketing.
Dan Hill: And so what he did not like it and Salesforce were the people who asked for evermore literature that they could drop off on the desk afterwards.
Dan Hill: And he said, if you're talking more than half the time the meeting. It's a really bad meeting. Yeah, you should be taking in the other party. So yes, I think they can pick up these things.
Dan Hill: But can they also maybe hone their act and take it to yet another level. There's a huge difference between a smile and a smirk and when people ask me for the difference in business terms, I say, oh, that's really simple. It's called profitability.
Wes Schaeffer: Amen.
Wes Schaeffer: Don't make me laugh. Man I'll cough.
Wes Schaeffer: Thank goodness for the mute button. Huh.
Wes Schaeffer: Man. Alright, so it's century century logic calm. I'm linking to that. I'm also linking to emotions wizard calm and I'm going to be reading your blog posts. So I'm glad you brought that up anything I missed anything. I should have asked
Dan Hill: Well, I do. I tell them, just a bit more about famous faces to codec because I'm trying to make it both
Wes Schaeffer: Instructive helpful as
Dan Hill: A salesperson. But I made it fun as
Dan Hill: Well, so I took 173 celebrities everything from rock stars to Hollywood stars famous CEOs athletes.
Dan Hill: So I am using famous people to kind of help make you feel that you're emotionally fluent terms of what emotions are about what triggers them.
Dan Hill: And then, what kinds of ways in which those emotions show in the face. So it's a fun read. But it's also an instructive read, I guess you could call it edutainment or something.
Wes Schaeffer: And so where is that I'm on your site.
Dan Hill: Yeah, I have a section called books. Yeah.
Dan Hill: It would be there or if you go to the blog, it'd be on the
Dan Hill: Right side of the blog postings each week.
Wes Schaeffer: Okay.
Dan Hill: famous faces decoded and a wild ride through the last three eras of Americana and celebrities of all all stripes in terms of personalities looks
And backgrounds.
Wes Schaeffer: Yeah, you got an interesting here to cheers for democracy, how emotions drive leadership style. You've got Lincoln, you've got Merkel, you've got Trump's famous. Yeah.
That's an emotive guy.
Wes Schaeffer: So I
Dan Hill: Actually, I actually went through in correlated all of the President's emoting to how they are ranked for greatness by presidential scholars, I'm always looking for the correlation. Sometimes it can be to sales figures.
Dan Hill: Are sometimes it can be the how the experts rank you for for ability to do your job. Well, yeah. Cool.
Wes Schaeffer: I didn't realize I just saw this this Angela Merkel have like a PhD in like physics or I mean something like really hard.
Dan Hill: Yeah, I believe it was in chemistry. It's definitely in the hard sciences.
Dan Hill: Yeah, but she is one smart cookie and
Dan Hill: very disciplined, as you might expect for a scientist type
Wes Schaeffer: Yeah.
Dan Hill: I was talking to someone who actually has a sibling who in Europe, you know, works with the EU really closely is that most of the high level meetings can characterize Merkel as, quote unquote, the only adult in the room.
Wes Schaeffer: Nice.
Wes Schaeffer: She is certainly up for the challenge. So very interesting
Wes Schaeffer: Well, thank you, sir. Thanks.
Dan Hill: for coming on the show. And I'm hoping things are calming down in Minneapolis.
Wes Schaeffer: And
Wes Schaeffer: Maybe one day we to meet
Dan Hill: So enjoy the nice weather in California were sweltering in the humidity around here.
Wes Schaeffer: No humidity here, but we're up in the 98 degree range. Now, so
Wes Schaeffer: You know, we have these 40 degree days so swings. It's 58 at night and 98 during the day. It's crazy.
Dan Hill: That's a big swing.
Wes Schaeffer: A big swing, but I'll take it. I grew up in the south with humidity and this ain't that bad.
Wes Schaeffer: That's right. All right, Dan. Thanks for coming. The show. Have a great day.
Thank you.