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Sales Jiu-Jitsu With Elliott Bayev and Daniel Moskowitz

Follow and system to grow your sales and your Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu skills 

Click here to download the episode. 



Sales System Tips you'll learn today on The Sales Podcast...

  • Mastermind BJJ run by Elliott and he met Daniel
  • Daniel lost 102 pounds and his doctor told him to get in touch with his new body
  • Why did you combine Sales and Jiu-Jitsu?
  • The sales system you outline has helped companies massively grow, can you tell us about it?
  • The four steps to win in competitions and sales and how to follow those steps to increase conversion rates
  • Is sales a combat sport?
  • Old school selling is a "fight."
  • Jiu-Jitsu literally means "gentle art"
  • The goal is to have a mutually-beneficial outcome

Get Your Sales Training Flashcards

  • "You and I, shining together." from Judo
  • Most people who pull guard win!
  • You must do a postmortem
  • Learn from your wins
  • Live training vs. dead training
  • Mandatory sparring partners that rotate every week to get live, resistance training
  • Create your objection database
  • This is not typical role-playing
  • They role-play the exact objection they got the week before
  • It's a timed event
    • Unpack
    • Document
    • Reverse rolls
  • Test your new strategies in training
  • The cost of inaction
  • You can't ignore it
  • The prospect must admit it and state it
  • We get paid to solve problems
  • When a prospect comes on too strong you have to figure out how to control the conversation
  • Pattern-interrupt, get them to share in the vision
  • They attack to keep themselves safe
  • Prospects fear change
  • Prospects become accountable for the changes they recommend
  • It's hard for a prospect to get consensus internally
  • We provide "sales as a service"
  • Three responses to conflict: fight, flight, plan ahead
  • Be consistent and persistent with your efforts
  • Systems are vital to success in sales and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
  • Success is when preparation meets opportunity
  • Find the hidden decision makers
  • Protect your biology
  • You must train the basics all the time (Daniel does a 6-month rotation because of slippage)
  • What is your why?
  • Your Inner Game is key, and your Why is a key component of it
  • A benchmark goal and the stretch goal

Links Mentioned In The Sales Podcast

  • Buy the book and pick up the launch-week exclusive bonus here 
  • We will be gifting a free training program called "The 4 Steps to Increase your Conversion Rate In 30 Days" and all the free resources that are mentioned in our book.

Wes Schaeffer: Daniel Moskowitz, Elliott Bayev all the way from Toronto. Welcome to the sales podcast, gentlemen. How the heck are you

Elliott Bayev: Doing great. Thanks for having us.


Wes Schaeffer: Well you if you have seen the Key and Peele. Oh, it says, y'all done, you're done messed up a Ron and we all see that one.


Wes Schaeffer: You guys all right. Yeah, go watch it right after

Elliott Bayev: This homework.

Wes Schaeffer: Did you know where they are the

Elliott Bayev: Community. Yeah, of course.

Wes Schaeffer: You gotta go gotta look up you done messed up a Ron because y'all done messed up. You wrote a book on jujitsu and you came on my show. So order Uber eats this is probably gonna go about 12 hours, you're going to need hydration.

Wes Schaeffer: My bring you some food and water because this is never going to end. All right.

Elliott Bayev: Excellent.

Wes Schaeffer: So y'all. Did you wrote a book.

Wes Schaeffer: Man. Man sales jujitsu the secret black belt system for champion leaders. Amen. We were talking already about 10 minutes before we hit record.

Wes Schaeffer: So thanks for writing this book, I, I got a slide from my school. I literally took it like the first took a picture like the first week I was there and

Wes Schaeffer: It talks about how it's hard and you got to stick with it and you're not going to have a bad day or month, you can have a bad year or two several things won't click I talked about, you're very close and

Wes Schaeffer: Just put in more time on the mat. So, so how this book come about, I think, Daniel, you were, you were training with Elliot just in just coincidental this. I mean, you start training you started talking and things evolved.

Elliott Bayev: Well, I run a jujitsu program for entrepreneurs called mastermind BJ J.

Elliott Bayev: No, no, it's kind of like a private once a week thing we were doing and Daniel came out to a few sessions and

Elliott Bayev: As you know, I'd be teaching some lesson or piece of philosophy connected to a technique you just see his eyes light up his ears perk up and

Elliott Bayev: Sound as we would get to know each other as we we would do like a little brunch after training and I'd hear about his sales philosophy and there was just so much alignment.

Daniel Moskowitz: Yeah, and that's all I mean for me when I when I got when I heard about it. I didn't know anything about martial arts, the time I I had just lost 102 pounds.

Daniel Moskowitz: And I was told by my doctors that you want to get back in touch with your new body go pick up a martial art like I don't really didn't believe the hitting and striking didn't really appeal to me.

Daniel Moskowitz: And as I learned a little bit before I came out. It's like, oh, man, you can win without ever hurting anybody and that just that stuff. But the core of my hotel philosophy is like leave people better off than you found them. Even the South Bronx.

Daniel Moskowitz: And so it just jam jive with me.

Daniel Moskowitz: Right, yeah, that, you know, Ellie would teach something go wait a minute, that's how I teach objection handling or it just, it just stopped and somebody over somebody I want to go students said you should write a book.

Daniel Moskowitz: And we kind of started laughed it off and but it happens too often, that we just said, Okay, we got to get together and make this thing happen so


Wes Schaeffer: Pay attention to the signs. God gives you

Daniel Moskowitz: All 100% it's not an end and as it came together for us.

Daniel Moskowitz: It just became this system, it became a systematic approach to it because you know as Elliot talks about, we, we, as we put together the book.

Daniel Moskowitz: It became based on on on training for for competition and and as we map that to a sale system. It just, it just became this great synchronicity.

Daniel Moskowitz: And it really address some of the biggest complaints that I know of as a sales director and as a sales individual

Daniel Moskowitz: As some of those is like as a manager. I always got frustrated when my team wasn't overcoming objections.

Daniel Moskowitz: Or they, you know, and then and then we're closing or weren't getting consistent results. You know that we that we were dependable.

Daniel Moskowitz: And then as a as a sales professional myself it's no matter what I did. I didn't get people engaged in what I knew was a great

Daniel Moskowitz: service or product for them or I got objections I couldn't handle and how do I, how do I get out of it and and and if I had deals that I already made then following through on the back end. And these are some of the biggest things that as I looked at the system that we created it addressed.

Wes Schaeffer: Yeah. Very cool. So, Elliot, you've

Wes Schaeffer: It's interesting. I mean, cuz you you're a full time Jiu Jitsu instructor at your own your own school and

Wes Schaeffer: And that's, that's your jam right but

Wes Schaeffer: You. It's interesting. You also have your. I don't know if you want to call it a side hustle or complimentary you this mastermind is is just for a business, right, you're just teaching sales and entrepreneurs and it just so happens that you are in jujitsu. I mean, how did that come about.

Elliott Bayev: I've always been interested in entrepreneurship. I mean, I consider myself an entrepreneur study business.

Elliott Bayev: Kind of on my own. Since you know for for over 20 years and have a number of businesses and you know you do Jiu Jitsu you know how

Elliott Bayev: Powerful, it is for teaching about life about conflict about success strategy and it just seemed like something that was so perfect for entrepreneurs and I was connected to number of entrepreneurs in the city. So just put it out to a few friends and came together and

Elliott Bayev: Just there were, there was such a happy marriage. It's just such a wonderful thing to and then so that got me in. I've always been someone who takes more of a philosophical approach to jujitsu, you know, there's so much we can learn about everything from the mats.

Elliott Bayev: And those lessons just seem to gel. And so that was its own program of slow down over last, you know, obviously kovats impacted the martial arts business in general.

Elliott Bayev: But we would run like retreats and

Elliott Bayev: Have again this private training group, but through Daniel and I coming together. I put together.

Elliott Bayev: Basically a formula as he was talking about. We use Jiu Jitsu competition as an analogy for a sales engagement.

Elliott Bayev: And I created the jujitsu success formula, which is basically a for phase process for prepping for and winning jujitsu competitions. So those four phases are pre, fight, fight winning and post fight.

Elliott Bayev: And that, you know, the obvious analogy there is then pre engagement is what pre fight means actually fighting is the engagement itself how you show up. How you, you know, open the client or the prospect rather

Elliott Bayev: Winning is how you close and then post fight is what you learn win or lose. And so, you know, I've been on top of being a competitor for over 20 years I've been coaching for more than 15

Elliott Bayev: And so I've gotten to see what works, what doesn't, not only in an actual jujitsu match, but in the preparation and the strategy of how you approach things and so

Elliott Bayev: Taking these lessons we've applied them to the sales context. And yeah, it just came together really beautifully.

Wes Schaeffer: Is sales a combat full contact sport.

Elliott Bayev: Beautiful question and this is actually a very common thing that those who don't know jujitsu kind of get a little concerned by because you know the what we say in the book is it's it's only old school.

Elliott Bayev: Sales mindsets that are that bullish like we're going to go beat the clients, it's, it's the opposite. And you know yes Jiu Jitsu training can be hard and intense

Elliott Bayev: But literally translated jujitsu means gentle art and it is more about collaborating with your training partner collaborating, even with your opponent to

Elliott Bayev: To achieve an ultimate outcome. So we say, you know, you're not fighting the prospect you're fighting the forces that get in the way of them saying, yes, because if you are a high caliber sales person.

Elliott Bayev: You're providing something that you know is going to benefit your clients. So anything that would get in the way of them saying, yes, it's actually hurting them.

Elliott Bayev: And ultimately jitsu you know not to get too philosophical I feel like it's it's the art of really benefiting you know

Elliott Bayev: Even from judo, there's this idea of how to training partners are supposed to work together even competitors gTech Yo, you and I, shining together. And it's that idea of mutual prosperity that

Elliott Bayev: My philosophy around jujitsu and I would say jujitsu as an art is really based on so we we take that philosophy which was just so aligned with Daniel's sales, you know, we use the term black belt sales.

Elliott Bayev: As a black belt and sales. That's the philosophy that he really started with. And so it was just such a happy kind of connection there.

Wes Schaeffer: You know, there's an old saying in the military that no battle plan survives contact with the enemy.


Wes Schaeffer: So, so why should I even plan. Can I just jump out and wing it. I mean, I'm good with people. I'm funny.

Wes Schaeffer: This training planning is it even necessary.

Elliott Bayev: Well, same thing in a jujitsu context. Do I need to train. I know some moves. Can I just jump in, you can and you will have some success, but this is not for the average person.

Elliott Bayev: Who just wants average results. This is for the already successful people who want a successful person who wants elite results. And if you want to be an elite competitor, you don't leave things to chance you don't

Elliott Bayev: Sometimes train you have not only consistency in your training, you have a system of approaching. So, you know, we in pre fight we talked about

Elliott Bayev: Not only knowing the history of the art. Some things have historically worked. So for those not familiar with jujitsu when you're on the bottom. Using your legs against the person. We call that the guard. And it turns out, statistically, in a competition. Most people who pull guard when

Elliott Bayev: So that's important knowledge of, quote unquote, the industry. But then there are also future trends new things coming new moves. If you're not studying those you're going to be left behind.

Elliott Bayev: But then you might add a tournament, you might see that a particular opponent likes a particular style of game that's key data so

Elliott Bayev: That's, that's just one example that those that's kind of one element of the four phase process, but we can see how taking more serious approach than just

Elliott Bayev: Oh, you know, I'm good with people. So I'm just going to go wing it. That's fine if those are the level of results you want. But if you want

Elliott Bayev: World class results, you have to have a world class system. And I think one thing that's not necessarily obvious until you really dig into the book, or even just see the, the actual map is that it is a system.

Elliott Bayev: So what we do after a fight and Dana can speak to this more on the sales context and sales context, but what we do after a fight win or lose

Elliott Bayev: Is a post mortem what went well and whatever we learn. So, for example, just quick example. I had a purple belt MMA fighter was fighting a local black belt.

Elliott Bayev: We have a lot of confidence in our guy, but we knew that if the black belt had a chance. It was probably going to be on the ground.

Elliott Bayev: So even though our guys very strong in the ground. The idea was to avoid the ground all together. He went in won the fight in two and a half minutes. It was very one sided

Elliott Bayev: It would have been very easy because it was so such a simple winner, a straightforward win to think, Oh, there's nothing to learn here.

Elliott Bayev: But because we systematically analyze every fight. There was a moment where the black belt actually shot in for a takedown and got to his hips. My guy stopped it.

Elliott Bayev: But why did he get there in the first place. So by studying now we saw something we could improve for the next fight and the next fight the guy never even got close

Elliott Bayev: So what you learn in post fight becomes your information for the next engagement for your pre fight phase. The next time you

Elliott Bayev: Enter, you know, an engagement.

Daniel Moskowitz: It's more recursive, it's very much about feeding on itself. I mean, until I learned this concept of winning learning from your wins.

Daniel Moskowitz: I had sales reps that would one day, they'd be killing it with the same niche with the same kind of objections that same product being sold the next day they forgot what they did. Right.

Daniel Moskowitz: Okay, you would lose what they did. Right. And the, the discipline of reviewing their calls when they won.

Daniel Moskowitz: Increase their confidence levels, their mental game increase. They saw what they did. Right. And they did more of it. And then it was more when I took that lesson that he taught us and I brought it into the into the

Daniel Moskowitz: Realm, and increased conversion rates and instantly instantly increase in conversion rates.

Wes Schaeffer: Well, how

Wes Schaeffer: How do you evolve, right, because I asked this of a friend of mine. I like but I trained with because I, you know, before we hit record, you know,

Wes Schaeffer: La it's asking me, like what my game is. And it's, I'm a big guy. So smashing past it's overpower you know dump them over boom and grind away and

Wes Schaeffer: I was, I felt like I was kind of stagnating, and I asked a buddy of mine. You know, I said, Do you, do you just stick with what you know, how can you change things up and mix them up and he was he was very adamant about do what works right if you got to move to it works.

Wes Schaeffer: But, I mean, we do have to grow. I can't do just one move forever and and now because we trained in the same school. Everybody knows each other's game.

Wes Schaeffer: That that move is not as effective against folks. I've trained with for a year. So how do you, how do you balance do what works. First is when when you know it's time to sprinkle something new in

Daniel Moskowitz: One of the things is I go ahead

Elliott Bayev: No, go ahead.

Wes Schaeffer: I'm just gonna randomly mute, y'all. And then

Wes Schaeffer: I can hear.

Daniel Moskowitz: So one of the things that I that I that I brought back to my team was the idea of live training versus dead training.

Daniel Moskowitz: So one of the things that happened was I found that my team did really great with prescriptive objections, like they could nail it. It sounded great sounded good. But the second they got into a live environment they tried that same move again. It didn't work.

Wes Schaeffer: Mm hmm.

Daniel Moskowitz: So what I instigated was a mandatory sparring partners and they rotate every week. And the idea is that they embody somebody they could not

Daniel Moskowitz: Overcome they become that person for their sparring partner and it becomes a live resistance training in the moment where they can they can

Daniel Moskowitz: Feel what it would be like for somebody else to overcome that objection and it makes them grow and makes them understand all

Daniel Moskowitz: And think of coming at it that way. That's a great question to ask. And then because of because of the system we have ways we have tools in the book that

Daniel Moskowitz: We have for everybody that allows you to document those sessions and then populate different databases on the outcomes of that objection database. Now we everyone can see how how others have done that.

Daniel Moskowitz: And other niche specific databases on oh this specific niche this specific type of approach may work well. So the growth competence, because you're forcing the conversation to happen between reps with live, real training and they see the need to evolve and get and then bring in new moves.

Wes Schaeffer: But, you know, you know, Daniel sales people hate role playing

Daniel Moskowitz: That's why this is different.

Wes Schaeffer: To buy in.

Daniel Moskowitz: Because it's different. It's not typical role playing is like, here's your scenario. Here's your thing go be that person. No, this is something they got pissed off about that week.

Daniel Moskowitz: This company, they couldn't overcome. It's like, it's like having a sparring partner in jujitsu that you couldn't overcome your life.

Daniel Moskowitz: What would it look what I have done differently in this case they have it real time feedback every single week.

Daniel Moskowitz: And my guys will love it, love it. They look forward to their scheduled sessions and they switch partners consistently.

Daniel Moskowitz: Who, they're not with the same people, week after week they actually really really enjoy it and it's it's a it's a timed event.

Daniel Moskowitz: It's like a like a match and and they have to stick to that time container, they can't go over and it's well positioned and they have to document what that what happened. They love it. They love it. They love it. They love it because

Wes Schaeffer: Are they able to kind of coach each other through like is it just a matter of once you have a baseline of knowledge. You can you can kind of coach each other to find the way

Daniel Moskowitz: Yeah, I mean I think what happens is, they'll spend 20 minutes on the clock.

Daniel Moskowitz: They'll get they'll schedule an hour for the first 20 minutes they become their the person they want they want the other person to show

Daniel Moskowitz: They go through a 20 minutes of that person working the other person with a pitch and everything.

Daniel Moskowitz: And then they stop the clock wherever they're at in the conversation and they 1010 minutes to debrief on it.

Daniel Moskowitz: Okay, what did I, what did I see what did you feel, but it's like, and they actually on pocket, and then they documented and then they spend 20 minutes for the other person they roll reverse

Daniel Moskowitz: And they love it. They love it. They love it because it's real, it's it's it's not it's not fictitious, it's not a made up scenario. And it's something that the other person couldn't overcome, and it's the learnings become easy to disseminate into the organization.

Elliott Bayev: One of the ways to understand, especially for those not familiar with jujitsu is a lot of martial arts have even the same exact same techniques as Brazilian jujitsu

Elliott Bayev: But it's the way they train that's so different, where you know maybe someone grabs you in this way.

Elliott Bayev: And then you have maybe the exact same move, but by the time you do step one in other martial arts, the person's basically just waiting for you to finish.

Elliott Bayev: Whereas we know in jujitsu in Brazilian jujitsu the time by the time you do step one, the person's actually trying to stop you. And it's that genuine

Elliott Bayev: Effort that that's that's the reality of an intense situation or that's through

Elliott Bayev: What you're going to face in a real situation, someone who's genuinely there and that's why in a what Dana was speaking about in a sales context.

Elliott Bayev: Where you know dead role playing is kind of like those arts that just kind of have the right mechanism but the wrong training method.

Elliott Bayev: But when you can actually genuinely challenge something someone with something new that forces them to grow.

Elliott Bayev: As for what you were asking about like how do you, how do you not stay stagnant. Well, a really important concept is

Elliott Bayev: The difference between like your A game and your be game if the stakes are high. If it's a real engagement, you're going to use your best tools.

Elliott Bayev: But that's why in pre fight. One of the sub sections is training.

Elliott Bayev: And that's where you're going to be testing out new strategies. So we have a section that talks about game planning, you create a game plan of what's good, what's your ideal scenario going to look like.

Elliott Bayev: But that's just an idea, you have to get then go test that you have to troubleshoot when things go wrong. And so again, that's why this whole system of how to approach.

Elliott Bayev: This you know this will improve. Anyone who trains jujitsu but we apply it to the sales context because the parallels are just so I think pretty elegant and apparent.


Wes Schaeffer: Well, definitely. They are

Wes Schaeffer: For four years now. I've been telling everybody start rolling

Wes Schaeffer: Will see I'm a less

Wes Schaeffer: And but you know in my sales training. I've always told my people, you know, we have to adjust how we sell to match how the prospect buys

Wes Schaeffer: So, like you were saying those that pull guard statistically win more fights. But how

Wes Schaeffer: What if a guy's got a really I don't know where he's got a really good stand up game.

Wes Schaeffer: And beautiful open, you know, maybe, would you would you tempt him to pull guard.

Elliott Bayev: Not at all.

Elliott Bayev: Not at all. Okay, but you don't want him to be ignorant of that fact. So what he needs to do to make his game effective is like you said, it's about adapting to the opponent.

Elliott Bayev: Right, or the client. So how does he adapt. Well, if he knows the person's going to try to get the bottom position for we call pulling guard then he has to make his takedown work before they do that.

Elliott Bayev: Or he has to and as well. I should say he has to make sure that if they successfully get to that bottom position he's not caught off guard and very easy to sweep when that happens.

Elliott Bayev: So it's not that I try to, you know, force my competitors to play a certain way, but I don't want them to be ignorant of the rule set or what statistically happens or what's most high percentage. We want them to make their game work for the environment. They're in

Daniel Moskowitz: It makes me think of, of the, the cost of inaction. We talked about this in in our fighting section on how to set up a win.

Daniel Moskowitz: And it's these little incremental elements that you can do in order to ensure that that you that you meet them where they're at. But in a way that's respectful.

Daniel Moskowitz: If you understand if you get the other the other the other party to tell you exactly

Daniel Moskowitz: If they don't implement the problem or solution listen as black belts health professionals, we get paid to solve problems.

Daniel Moskowitz: And if somebody can tell you if you don't solve this problem for me. Here is the cost of me not doing it the cost of inaction.

Daniel Moskowitz: And what most people do is they ignore the cost of an action or the state of the cost of inaction.

Daniel Moskowitz: For a customer, what you should be doing is making the customer state, the cost of inaction themselves and you draw it out for them now they know the consequence of not

Daniel Moskowitz: Engaging and what will actually happen if you don't engage with it if you don't actually solve the problem when they say that it got them. It puts them into a position where you almost can't lose

Wes Schaeffer: Yeah.

Wes Schaeffer: But that does take some training. Right.

Wes Schaeffer: Yeah, you get a guy like they come in and just bum rush right I cool. I love big new white belt.

Wes Schaeffer: I'm finally at a point where I can, I can handle them right this guy, it was maybe three weeks ago now. He's only been there been there a couple of months, but we have missed each other and

Wes Schaeffer: So I'm there and I get paired up with him. He's a big strong guy, and this this dude was like a primal guttural

Wes Schaeffer: He was grunting raw, you know, just do hands on the collar ripping and Poland and I'm just like, Holy smokes man. Oh.

Wes Schaeffer: I let him do his thing, right. I just pull guard. I'm hugging him. I look up my professors walking by, he's laughing and I'm laughing and this guy's just pushing him in

Wes Schaeffer: And I let him just get tired right 30 seconds. Maybe he's tired. All right, let's let's sweep and

Wes Schaeffer: And I'm like, we were saying before we hit record. I'm usually very chill. I don't submit people enough. Right. I need to do more, because usually I'll just work my position transition, but this guy. It's like, I think I tapped him five times like this dude needs to learn

Wes Schaeffer: How to roll. Hey, but but he came on like gangbusters. And I let him kind of do his thing for a while.

Wes Schaeffer: Do we, do we need to let the prospect kind of do that let them feel like they're in control for a bit and then kind of come around, you know, instead of forcing our will. You know what I mean.

Elliott Bayev: There's a few ways to think about that is it that the prospect is the opponent. You were referring to

Elliott Bayev: Or is it that the the the mindset and the objections that they have in mind are very forceful and so you might need to let those out and let them air them so that you can adapt to them, you might need to

Elliott Bayev: Better understand why they're so adamant that this is not, you know, this might not be an issue. And actually, in the book, Daniel talks about

Elliott Bayev: When it's time to actually step away from an engagement. If they're it say just isn't a connection we talked about in in fighting. You know how you connect with the opponent, or are they the in our case the client.

Elliott Bayev: And only connecting on your terms. So maybe Daniel can speak more to that but

Daniel Moskowitz: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think in winning. We talk about reinforcing the idea of future casting and sometimes when when a prospect coming on so strong and and they're, they're kind of doing their own thing.

Daniel Moskowitz: One of the things I love to to pattern disrupt that. I mean, you still have to take control as a sales rep. I mean you you can't let a

Daniel Moskowitz: prod, you're never going to close a prospect who controls the conversation and it's not going to happen. But at some point, as you said, you got to turn the tide. And sometimes that's about

Daniel Moskowitz: Painting the future, what its gonna look like with your product or service installed in their business. Like, what does that future look like and can they share in that vision.

Daniel Moskowitz: And they come around to that vision and sometimes pattern disrupting them and just say, Well, let's think about this for a minute. If that problem was solved.

Daniel Moskowitz: This is what the future would look like for your company. Don't you want that. We want that. And it just disrupts the their normal their normal game.

Daniel Moskowitz: Or their habits that they that they default to and now they're, they're just trying to keep themselves safe. They're kind of save themselves from, you know, they want. They don't want. They don't want to

Daniel Moskowitz: Pay that there's a problem. Nobody wants to say that I'm a problem but you know we need to get them out of that safety, safety zone and get them. Get them. Get them disrupted, a little bit.

Wes Schaeffer: Why do prospects take meetings and then bite the head off of the salesperson. That is trying to help them.

Daniel Moskowitz: I think it comes down to that it comes to like the brain can't tell the difference between a saber tooth tiger down the road or you just having a little bit of

Daniel Moskowitz: You know, uneasy about something, you know, and I think some people fear that there's there's fear of change. Fear of implementing something new.

Daniel Moskowitz: And also the accountability, like the accountability in organizations. The state these days have gone up when you say, yeah, we're gonna we're gonna make this chain where I put a stake in the ground. We're going to invest in a solution.

Daniel Moskowitz: Their jobs are on the line and and or they don't want to take on the, the burden or the risk of trying to go get consensus.

Daniel Moskowitz: Consensus and organizations now is is tedious. You have to get a lot of sign offs for large investments from a lot of different parties. But the bigger the organization, the more complicated there. And so I think, you know, they take meetings because they're intrigued.

Daniel Moskowitz: But to get them to take action, you need to you need to get there either pattern disrupt them, you need to get them into a spot where they are.

Daniel Moskowitz: agreeing with you that the cost of inaction, that the future will be brighter and that they agree but i but i do I take a call yesterday that that one bit. MY HEAD OFF. YOU KNOW, JUST BECAUSE I'M LIKE, BUT YOU YOU BOOKED IT WITH ME. I DIDN'T book it with you you been with me.

Wes Schaeffer: Mm hmm.

Daniel Moskowitz: You know, and their excuses are wide variety. But I think it really does come down to being being fearful. Very good.

Elliott Bayev: Yeah and that fear can come from any places. It could be that they've had bad experiences with sales folk right so you think of, say, your white belt training partner.

Elliott Bayev: Maybe someone comes in for the first time, and they've had bad experiences with, you know, even, whether it be training or self fence situations, they're naturally going to be tense, but

Elliott Bayev: And we spoke a little before we got on this call about, you know, different ways of rolling and it might take you rolling with them at a in a very relaxed way for them to ease up

Elliott Bayev: And for them to understand that you're not the kind of person. And this is not the kind of engagement, where you're going to be trying to crush them and that you know so much of what we communicate our vibe really

Elliott Bayev: Tells the person who we are more than what we say and that can sometimes not always but can often allow them to relax. And so it's really important that we're

Elliott Bayev: As Daniel said taking charge of the engagement by by really controlling what we put out and not getting flustered by the energy someone else brings

Daniel Moskowitz: Sales, Service sales as a service that's what I really think of it. And so it's like we are providing

Daniel Moskowitz: sales professional sometimes we do get a lot of mud thrown at us that were, you know, sales as a profession, like, Oh, you've made us buy something we didn't need

Daniel Moskowitz: But sell for the service cells is like it's a noble profession that we help people solve problems.

Daniel Moskowitz: And when we solve those problems companies can hire more people keep more people save more money give out bigger bonuses do amazing things in this world.

Daniel Moskowitz: We have a noble profession that that I that I truly believe changes the world for the better. And we need to take on that mantle and and really go out there and serve people

Wes Schaeffer: When do you know it's time to to force the issue versus

Wes Schaeffer: go a different direction like one thing like my professor. He is very good. Like he he pulls guard right and he he will grab your right arm and he will tug tug tug 345 times, ma'am.

Wes Schaeffer: Finally get that arm across your body, then it's, you know, then it's lights out right he's going to take your back. He's going to arm bar you

Wes Schaeffer: And I it's it's taking me a long time to realize. All right, that's like put more effort into a move even a repeated effort. I always think, oh, I tried one thing and then work. I gotta just totally changed my game and go after something else.

Wes Schaeffer: You know, so you know what I'm saying, like, how

Wes Schaeffer: when when when

Wes Schaeffer: Our founding versus US that gentle art and use their weight against them and momentum and, you know, gently roll them over and kill them.

Elliott Bayev: You know they're there are three responses to conflict and most people only ever learned to fight or flight.

Elliott Bayev: But the third is what jitsu is all based on planning ahead.

Elliott Bayev: So you need to be consistent and persistent with your efforts, you're trying an attack doesn't work doesn't mean you have to move something else right away. Maybe it means. Okay, try it again.

Elliott Bayev: But if you just wait till you're in that moment to figure out what to do when that fails, you're already a step behind

Elliott Bayev: Because you're going to be then having to decide, do I go back to the same plan or do I give up and go somewhere else. So I'm, I'm actually working on a video right now called

Elliott Bayev: What jujitsu can teach us about systems thinking and you know if you know this won't necessarily make sense to those listening who don't do jujitsu, but if you know the Kimora guillotine hip bump combination. That's an example of a system and what I like to do is plan my my game plan.

Elliott Bayev: In advance so that I go in a analyze and this is what we get into in the training your troubleshooting. What happens when I try this move. How can they stop me.

Elliott Bayev: Well, either they pull back or they drive forward. Okay, well, what can I do when they pull back, they leave this open. Okay, let me actually go and test.

Elliott Bayev: My response to that, let me go and train that it's working. What happens when they push forward. Okay, what if I did this.

Elliott Bayev: Let's try it. We train it doesn't work. Okay, so we come up with something else. So for me, it's more about

Elliott Bayev: Prepping ahead so that you have a system so that you're ready when they pull that arm back so that your first attempt is not really your first attempt at that move.

Elliott Bayev: But your first attempt to get them to an algorithm, a system of responses that you're going to have, and they, you know, I'm sure. Daniel can speak to the sales side of that, but it's it's just, again, it's about prepping your and actually Daniel has a great example of

Elliott Bayev: When he was pitching to a whole bunch of to a to a client and then had to present to the leadership team, not knowing if some of the people that weren't in the first meeting would be there, Daniel. Do you want to show

Daniel Moskowitz: Its preparation meets opportunity when and having a system in place that always allows you to be prepared with new tools that you can bring out

Daniel Moskowitz: Because if you didn't know another move to counter that or another technique to bring in

Daniel Moskowitz: You'd be lost. You'd be lost. And that's one of the reasons why I wrote the book we wrote the book together. It's I saw the opportunity to bring together an incredible system what all the it's referring to is the idea of have we talked about the hidden decision makers, so

Daniel Moskowitz: I've had a situation where I had a champion and the champion was like gone gangbusters. We ended up creating a proposal that was around six figures and I turned him, I said,

Daniel Moskowitz: Can you approve this like can you actually approve this is like, oh no, that actually has to go to the full leadership team.

Daniel Moskowitz: But oh okay can I come from that because I know if he presented it may not happen. But if I presented it and we had already gone through quite a few meetings to get to the point of of the proposal.

Daniel Moskowitz: And what you're talking about is I took the foresight of when I was practicing the pitch to my team. One of them said, well, how did you arrive at that solution that that's the Jefferson

Daniel Moskowitz: I said, Oh, my goodness. Exactly. You would know that because you weren't in all the other meetings so I hid inside of a hit the deck of the first meeting of the presentation of the actual arrival of the solution.

Daniel Moskowitz: Ready, just in case that question came up, and lo, behold the came up I hid that part of the deck and I went through that for the give them the

Daniel Moskowitz: Not the high level contacts. But the deeper context of why we came up with a solution that never would have happened if I didn't train with my team ahead of time before going into the border.


Wes Schaeffer: And that takes discipline. I mean, it's not sexy. Right. It's not fun. It's, it's easy for people to push back. Right. I mean, how do you get that consensus internally for your own team to go through that.

Daniel Moskowitz: It's sick that it comes down to, like, they love winning. You want to find people that love to win. And if they love to win.

Daniel Moskowitz: They will get the discipline to train, they'll get the discipline to to use the system. And when they stopped winning you turn to them and say did you use the system. They're like, No. I said, Well, why do you think you lost

Daniel Moskowitz: You didn't go back to the things that work and it's it's that recursive nature of the other system that gets the winds and as you know all sales reps are

Daniel Moskowitz: The good ones are all a type winners. They want to when they're hungry to win. And if they see something that they do every day that gets them a win, like I talked to my team about protecting their biology.

Daniel Moskowitz: Like, you're not going to wind up but you will have a carb carb heavy lunch and you're trying to do sales calls the afternoon and your brains going all fuzzy no rancor water.

Daniel Moskowitz: Eat healthy snacks exercise and be a good steward of your body, your mind can be sharp and be there. Well, where do they start winning because of that they do have more often.

Daniel Moskowitz: And yeah, we always have to train the basics. You know that, like we like you got to train the basics, all the time with teams to keep them sharp

Daniel Moskowitz: And I have a six month rotation, where I go through all the basics again every six months with my team.

Daniel Moskowitz: We go through, you know, weekly training that we do and on a six month rotation, we go back to the basics. Again, because sometimes they forget the basics and and it flips. There's slippage all the time.

Daniel Moskowitz: But my biggest thing is when they, when they love winning and they know what they need to do to win.

Elliott Bayev: Yeah. And also, it comes back to you. Ultimately your why and and so the first section in pre fight we break every section or every phase into three sub sections.

Elliott Bayev: First subsection is your inner game and the first subsection of your inner game is your why

Elliott Bayev: And if your why is actually compelling to if the reasons for wanting to win are actually compelling you'll put in the work.

Elliott Bayev: If your why doesn't it. Same. Same on the mats. If someone doesn't really care about winning a competition, they're not going to be putting in those hours of drilling.

Elliott Bayev: But if it really means a lot to them and they've identified that and articulated and put it on their wall and reminding themselves of it every day.

Elliott Bayev: Then all of a sudden the those boring reps are not actually that boring because they see the connection between what Daniel is talking about the ultimate outcome, the success that they want and the work that's going to lead there.

Wes Schaeffer: You know, a lot of times the

Wes Schaeffer: Well sales people think their Why is forced upon them right there, an employee. They got a quota.

Wes Schaeffer: The boss is grinding on them, you know, do you, do you have advice for for those guys I've worked for many companies that I ended up leaving right because it was it was a grind.

Wes Schaeffer: Some unrealistic quota is thrust upon me, and I just have to suck it up and I worked in telecom for years and my manager, he said what he was told this years before that was that.

Wes Schaeffer: They were told the basically one out of every three years is going to be good.

Wes Schaeffer: That they're gonna make they're gonna make big quotas, basically it's like they give you a huge number, and you can't make

Wes Schaeffer: And then so they give you a huge number. The next year, but not quite as huge because they overdid it. The first year.

Wes Schaeffer: And then finally on the third year they wake up and I'm we're grinding our people down they give you an achievable quota, you hit it, you kill it. You know, you hit all your accelerators. You make great money.

Wes Schaeffer: Then they you know they're back to slap in a huge quote on top of you. And I was like, oh yeah, I'm out of here. I'm not, I'm not gonna live in a world where I can win 33% of the time.

Wes Schaeffer: But that is reality for a lot of people. A lot of companies, I mean,

Wes Schaeffer: You have advice for people grinding through that.

Daniel Moskowitz: Yeah, I mean I haven't fight for managers. I mean, this is one of the reasons we both wrote the book. It's for sales leaders, you know, to be better people and better champions.

Daniel Moskowitz: There's actually nothing better than having a realistic quota, it actually will have your team.

Daniel Moskowitz: Psychologically, be in a much safer place and they will make more sales happen because of it.

Daniel Moskowitz: You can increase them over exponentially. But if nothing like a cell groups telling you, I'm going to, I'm going to nail five this week and they actually nail five

Daniel Moskowitz: Like, that's an incredible if you're in that predictable scenario. There's nothing better than a than a psychological zone of like I'm winning every week.

Daniel Moskowitz: And hitting a quota that they can actually meet I don't agree with with heading quotas that are that are just unrealistic. It does not serve

Daniel Moskowitz: The psychological component of your, of your annually. No. So the mental game. It's like 90% mental and if you can't be in a psychological zone of knowing that you're winning all the time.

Daniel Moskowitz: You're not going to be in that. The second part is, how do you get them connected to a why that's not just about their quotas.

Daniel Moskowitz: Well for me, I look for people that are that are interested in in winning for their families interested in winning for

Daniel Moskowitz: You know, they want to retire their mother or they have like they have something that's bigger than just them.

Daniel Moskowitz: That they that is a goal that they want to achieve. They want to do a trip to someplace like whatever that is, it doesn't matter.

Daniel Moskowitz: To me, but it's got to be something more than just I want to hit quota, or I want to, you know, I want to make

Daniel Moskowitz: This much money will why why the money. What's the why behind that and I got them to write that down and then share it with me. I want to dream with them a little bit about that as a sales manager. I know.

Daniel Moskowitz: That that motivates them. I know what they're all about. I know what they're I know why they show up to work every day and want to work really hard and I got a guy on my team has got twins, he just, he just wants to make a better life for them.

Daniel Moskowitz: It's a normal everyday thing and that's your thumb that gives them fuel and then I give them the opportunity to win all the time.

Elliott Bayev: Now another tool. Daniel talks about is having a benchmark goal and a. What did you call it a new

Daniel Moskowitz: workflow. So we always we always talk about two different kinds of goals, the stretch goals. The one we're always trying to go and we'll, we'll have a mass siesta together. If we hit it.

Daniel Moskowitz: But the day to day goal is, this is the budget goal is, it's the, it's the benchmark. It's the goal that we have to hit to keep the lights on that he we have to hit in order to do it. And that's the one that we grind to

Daniel Moskowitz: And we all agree on that. We're going to make it happen. And the stretch one, we're still going after that, like, we still want to make that stretch, but it's the gravy. It's the stuff we're now the extra bonuses start to kick in.

Daniel Moskowitz: And that's that just keeps it keeps it state. Yeah.

Wes Schaeffer: Very cool. I love it.

Wes Schaeffer: Black. Black cover red and white font, kind of like a click a black belt huh

What a coincidence.

Wes Schaeffer: So the book is coming out right now sales jujitsu the secret black belt system for champion leaders, you've got a link. Correct. We can send

Wes Schaeffer: It to

Daniel Moskowitz: We got some amazing bonus items for folks when you buy the book. It's only 99 cents. This week, like this is our last week.

Daniel Moskowitz: It's 99 cents for the E book, it's a no brainer. You know, available on Amazon. But listen, if you go to to pick up a copy. You go to sales Jiu Jitsu book.com

Daniel Moskowitz: And we've put a special link forward slash sales for you for sales with her and we wanted to. So it's sales, Jay.

Daniel Moskowitz: Jay, I T su book.com forward slash sales and we got a couple things we have a little programs it's complimentary to you guys is the four steps to increasing your conversion rates and 30 days.

Daniel Moskowitz: And when you implement these these things correctly the steps. It's proven to increase your conversion rates by at least 10 to 20%

Daniel Moskowitz: And we also have free resources with the book, almost every chapter everything from our log book are sparring trading partner logs or objection handling how I review calls. It's all there. And again, just sales jujitsu book.com forward slash sales and yeah it's all for you guys.

Wes Schaeffer: Very nice. I will promote it.

Wes Schaeffer: Lucky for you, I'm hungry. So I have to end this interview, otherwise we would key. I didn't, I didn't plan ahead. Man, I needed to have my food come in and my wife, she just gave me that look. So I was like okay i can't i can't push that so you know

Elliott Bayev: Do it again.

Wes Schaeffer: She's the she's the red belt.

Right in this House.

Wes Schaeffer: All right, gentlemen. Well thanks for carving out some

Wes Schaeffer: Time. The book is excellent recommend everybody get it and get into a good school as well.

Wes Schaeffer: So thanks for coming on the show. Have a great day.

Daniel Moskowitz: Thanks, bye bye for now