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Produce Predictable Profits With Pinterest and Alisa Meredith

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Alisa Meredith


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Entrepreneur Tips you'll learn today on The Sales Podcast...

  • Plan, create, and publish your posts to Pinterest and Instagram
  • Pinterest is a search and discover platform
  • Pinterest is for those who don’t like social media
  • Pinterest is great for finding stuff
  • If you like SEO, Pinterest could be for you
  • 97% of searches on Pinterest are unbranded
  • Hashtags are no longer a thing on Pinterest
  • Title, Description, continuity with the Board you’re saving to

SELL MORE OF EVERYTHING IN THIS GROUP

97% of searches on Pinterest are unbranded"

The Manly Benefits of Pinterest To Your Bottom Line, with Jeff Sieh

 

Links Mentioned In The Sales Podcast

Order Wes's second book to think, market, and close like The Sales Whisperer.

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Alisa Meredith on The Sales Podcast.m4a: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Alisa Meredith on The Sales Podcast.m4a: this m4a audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Wes Schaeffer:
Alisa Meredith, with Tailwind app, all the way from Wilmington, North Carolina. Welcome to The Sales Podcast. How the heck are you?

Alisa Meredith:
Hey, I'm doing great. How about yourself, Wes?

Wes Schaeffer:
I'm good. So I'm going to have to grab some video of your cat eating ice cream. We're going to blend this in, multimedia --

Alisa Meredith:
Yes, please.

Wes Schaeffer:
Very nice. So you've been doing your own thing for a while, but you also got your hands -- you're kind of like me, right? Like an affiliate, certified partners, resellers sort of model of a pretty cool app -- for marketing? Is it paid advertising on Pinterest and Instagram? Is it organic posting? All the above?

Alisa Meredith:
So many questions all in one. Yes.

Wes Schaeffer:
I'd like you to answer them in 37 seconds, go.

Alisa Meredith:
All in order. Yes.

Wes Schaeffer:
[chuckles] First, alphabetical order. Then I want you to answer by lowest price --.

Alisa Meredith:
And then success rate, yeah. I do have a very small marketing agency. I spend most of my time working on the Tailwind team and Tailwind being a tool for Instagram and Pinterest, which helps you to plan, create and publish your posts. So yes, at this point, mainly the use case is organic, although we do have tools that help you create beautiful visual assets for your ads as well.

Wes Schaeffer:
Gotcha. So who needs to be publishing organic content to Pinterest and Instagram?

Alisa Meredith:
The question is a trick question.

Wes Schaeffer:
Don't say everybody. Come on, there's got to be one person that shouldn't be on these platforms.

Alisa Meredith:
Yeah, you know, it's funny, whenever I challenge someone and say, okay, I challenge you to give me a business that shouldn't be on Pinterest and inevitably someone will come up with, like, undertaker. It's like, all right, fine, you got me.

Wes Schaeffer:
That's not true. Hey, you know what? One of my first paid keynote talks, it was in Vegas over a decade ago, now -- it's crazy -- it was the ICCFA.

Alisa Meredith:
What does that stand for?

Wes Schaeffer:
I'd have to look it up, but it's cemeteries and crematoriums. And they have two conferences a year and one of them is a sales and marketing conference. So this was over a decade ago, and a friend of mine from church, his family owns a couple of mortuaries here and I went and did my research, hung out with him, he gave me a tour. And it's big business.

Alisa Meredith:
Oh, I'm not saying it's not big business, just not sure it's right for Pinterest. Now, Instagram, maybe. Maybe.

Wes Schaeffer:
Why? Why Instagram and not Pinterest? Because people from the outside looking in, I mean, I'm on these platforms. I'm not a wizard at them. You know, in one way it'd be like, well, aren't they kind of the same? I mean --

Alisa Meredith:
Oh, no.

Wes Schaeffer:
-- I know Facebook owns Instagram. I mean, we're just posting pictures. I mean, come on. It's all pictures for social media. So it's all the same.

Alisa Meredith:
Well, now. Oh, you're so wrong. It's really, really bad etiquette to go on a podcast and tell the host that. But you were asking for it. [chuckles] So -- so different. So different. So Instagram is a lot about -- a lot about the business owner and the the employees and their culture and and the people who use their products or services, which is great. It's really great for that know-like-and-trust factor that we all talk about.

Pinterest is very different. Pinterest is about yourself, not your selfie. It is kind of like the introverts network. So we go to Pinterest to plan our best selves, our best lives, how we're going to improve our homes, how we're going to help our kids stay occupied and get the education they need, how we're going to plan for the future, how we're going to plan for travel, for events, even hobbies, trying new things. So it's really much more of an inward-focused network. So as long as your product service idea or whatever it is, you can help someone in that journey towards becoming their best self, you can do that.

I think it could be argued that the crematorium may not fit into that category, but a lot of businesses you wouldn't think would actually do so. The finance industry can do really, really well on Pinterest when that bank or that credit union or whatever they are can really tap into what people want for the future, which might be a vacation and might be planning for saving for college. As long as you can put that spin on it, that helps people envision a brighter future through what you have to offer, then you can do well on Pinterest.

Wes Schaeffer:
And the reason I bring these up is because I know people -- listen, this is so hokey. I'm not some social media thing, man. My business is different. It's like I tell them all the time it's like fishing. Right? So what? I love to eat fish, but I want to go to the desert. So I like -- I prefer the desert but I like to eat fish. Well, you're not going to catch any fish in the desert. You got to go where the fish are.

Alisa Meredith:
This is true.

Wes Schaeffer:
So if your customers and your ideal prospects are hanging out on these platforms, you need to be where they are.

Alisa Meredith:
You do. And if you don't like social media, then you might actually really like Pinterest, because it is -- at this point, it's more of a search and discovery engine. So most of the activity that's happening is in the search bar. So people are actually looking for content, looking for ideas, or in the home feed, they're not -- there is some commenting, some adding photos to things, and Pinterest really would like to make it more of a place to create -- like connect the creators of the content with Pinners. But right now, so the main use is to go and find the thing.

So if you like SEO, you don't like social media, you might really like Pinterest. You might like it even more when you find out that 97 percent of the searches that are performed on Pinterest -- and there's something like two billion a month -- 97 percent of those are unbranded, which means this is a really great place to be discovered because people are open to something brand new they don't have in their heads -- I want this brand of speaker or I want this brand of shoe -- they want an idea for something to wear running or they want running tips. They're they're so open to discovering that it really works well to pair that Pinterest discovery with that Instagram know-like-and-trust factor.

Wes Schaeffer:
So when you say unbranded, so they're not going -- if they go to Instagram, you're saying they would type in "Nike running shoe" or "best Nike shoe for basketball."

Alisa Meredith:
On Google they would. On Instagram, they might actually follow Nike or they might follow an influencer who has a deal with Nike.

Wes Schaeffer:
Why wouldn't they follow Nike on Pinterest?

Alisa Meredith:
They might, but it's a different mindset, so they're not necessarily searching for a particular shoe. They're searching for the best shoes to help them avoid plantar fasciitis, or the best shoes for a brand new runner or tips on how tips on proper running form.

Wes Schaeffer:
Okay. So that's interesting. So then Pinterest is still visual, right?

Alisa Meredith:
Yep. Very much so.

Wes Schaeffer:
So I have my pin and I have my board. Am I just putting in, like, a cool graphic and then taking them to my website from that pin?

Alisa Meredith:
Yes. I mean, they have could be a little more specific than that. So it would be an image that is designed to build interest in whichever particular URL you're going to send people to.

Wes Schaeffer:
The landing page, ideally; don't send them just to your home page and make them search again because you'll lose them.

Alisa Meredith:
Right, exactly. And we just have to say that because sometimes that happens.

Wes Schaeffer:
Yeah. All right. So is Pinterest -- are we doing the same thing with hashtags? You mentioned SEO, so we're still writing a good title, writing a good description; are there character limits like with Twitter?

Alisa Meredith:
Yeah, but there are a lot longer. I think the description limit is 500, but you really only need one to two sentences. Hashtags are no longer a thing on Pinterest. They were, then they weren't, than they were; now they're not. So it has more to do with, yes, like you said, the title, the description. They're also going to look for some continuity between that and the board you're saving to. So the board name and the board description. They're also going to look at your website. They want to see some consistency on the page that you're linking to as well, which just makes sense. They really don't want you to be talking about toddler girls, frilly dresses, and linking to a page about hammers, for a terrible example, right? So just having that consistency and keyword usage in all of those places will help.

Wes Schaeffer:
My Pinterest is still jacked up because I didn't use it much and I let my daughters use it where they had their own accounts when they were young and there's frilly dresses and makeup.

Alisa Meredith:
I bet.

Wes Schaeffer:
And I'm like, how do I get rid of, like, old searches or likes or whatever?

Alisa Meredith:
Yes, you can do that. If yeah. If you go to.

Wes Schaeffer:
Yeah. Tell me.

Alisa Meredith:
All right. I will save you from that. Yeah. You just go to your --

Wes Schaeffer:
Because I'm really not into dresses and makeup. It's really not me.

Alisa Meredith:
We believe you, we believe you.

Wes Schaeffer:
It wasn't even research.

Alisa Meredith:
[chuckles] You know, I've done the same thing, done research for a client on, say, like, nursery decor and, oh my goodness. Yes. That's all you're going to see. If you go to your Pinterest and on the far right, there's this little downward caret. Click on that and go to "Tune your home feed."

Wes Schaeffer:
Tune your home feed, look at that. History.

Alisa Meredith:
Just like your guitar, yep. And then you can turn off what you want and tell it what to show you.

Wes Schaeffer:
All right.

Alisa Meredith:
It's going to change -- that's going to change your Pinterest life.

Wes Schaeffer:
12 weeks. Yeah. So here's one. Gwen and Blake ready for a baby on US Weekly. Come on, turn that one off.

Alisa Meredith:
You sure? [chuckles]

Wes Schaeffer:
What is this one? This is some cute girl that looks too young for this picture, playing tennis. So, like, yeah, that one.

Alisa Meredith:
Yep. You might want to take that one off.

Wes Schaeffer:
Take that one off. All right. Now there's some jujitsu, all right. Keep that one. Looks like I turned -- oh, there we go. Thirty six weeks ago -- now I'm torn because now we're at the blueberry lemon scones. I'm kind of liking those.

Alisa Meredith:
Yeah.

Wes Schaeffer:
All right. I'm turning those off. All right. Oh, here's the old ones. All right. Well --

Alisa Meredith:
Give me the -- give me the best one you've got.

Wes Schaeffer:
But it's just all fashion. I mean, it's lingerie. It's swimsuits.

Alisa Meredith:
Oh, dear. Yeah. Well, you know what's great about this? You know, if you still let them on there, if you ever wondered what to get them for a gift, that's a pretty good way to figure it out.

Wes Schaeffer:
Well, that's true. But yeah. Oh, I'm so glad we're talking because this is -- oh, my gosh, there's so many.

Alisa Meredith:
Yeah. And, you know, if later you're sorry that you deleted the blueberry scones angle there, you can also just search them again, looking back.

Wes Schaeffer:
Golly. My kids were way -- you know, like, no wonder they weren't doing any work.

Alisa Meredith:
And that is the Pinterest rabbit hole. Yes.

Wes Schaeffer:
But now I got to go back and figure out why they have Aerosmith on there. So that's kind of interesting.

Alisa Meredith:
Oh, I would have thought you could approve of that one.

Wes Schaeffer:
I know. So I'm keeping those. I got to go back and check. All right. That's cool. Very interesting.

Alisa Meredith:
Mm-hmm.

Wes Schaeffer:
So, yeah, I don't think I knew that about how much it's a search engine. I mean, what are the demographics that are here? Is it younger? Is it older?

Alisa Meredith:
So this is so interesting to me, anyway, having watched Pinterest since it began. So in the past year, the number of Gen Z users on the platform has grown 40 percent, which is huge. So they're actually the largest age group on Pinterest. Eighteen to 24-year-olds make up 32 percent of the audience on Pinterest.

Wes Schaeffer:
Wow.

Alisa Meredith:
Yeah, huge change. The gender split is still pretty much the same; it's 70 percent female. But the things they're looking for is what you'd expect probably: home decor, DIY, crafts or entertainment, fashion, food and drink, education; travel. So travel is coming back in a big way right now because people are ready to start seeing a world where that is actually possible again. And again, it's all about planning for the future.

Wes Schaeffer:
So why would I go here versus YouTube or just Google?

Alisa Meredith:
Why would you go there? It is in a lot of ways, a lot of people's happy place. So they have been really good about weeding out fake news and just stuff you don't want to see. It's a very positive place, and positivity works on Pinterest. So, you know, sometimes you run across something on YouTube you wish you hadn't seen. And I like YouTube too. Don't get me wrong. And I like Facebook most of the time. They all have their place. But Pinterest really is that place to be inspired.

So to find something new to try -- so I like to -- I like to paint. I like acrylic painting and specifically anything with fluid art. So I go on Pinterest and I find something beautiful that I might want to make. So I'll save that for later. And then when I have a chance to paint, I might bring that up. Now, I'll also go on YouTube and watch videos on how to do it. But Pinterest is kind of that place for that instant inspiration. Or if I need a recipe, I'm going to go to Pinterest because it's just really easy to collect them into a board, put them in sections so that I can find them later.

Wes Schaeffer:
Mm-hmm. Am I going to come here and search for business tips? If this is my escape, my getaway, am I going to come here for business?

Alisa Meredith:
Yeah. So remember I mentioned that finances can be really good on Pinterest. The top categories in there are going to be banking, credit cards, financial planning, investments; insurance. And working with Tailwind, so it's a software as a service company, we have quite a lot of success from Pinterest, both organic and paid, because, yes, people are on Pinterest trying to plan a business or grow a business because, again, it's what can I find here that will make my life better in a month, two months, five years, 10 years, and business tips definitely fall into that category. Are you going to get the volume that you get if you were in home decor? Probably not, but it's still -- it's still significant.

Wes Schaeffer:
Right. Very cool. So we've been hogging Pinterest -- poor little Instagram.

Alisa Meredith:
Oh, I wouldn't feel too bad for Instagram. [laughs] They're quite huge.

Wes Schaeffer:
They're doing all right?

Alisa Meredith:
They're doing all right. Yes, they are.

Wes Schaeffer:
So can I take the same image and just share them to both? Do they need to be special formatting? Is your software help with that?

Alisa Meredith:
Yeah. So with Pinterest, the image size that they recommend and say works the best is it's a ratio of 2:3, so it's 1000 wide, 1500 tall. So you could stilll use that on Instagram if you wanted to, but usually you go a little bit more square than that on Instagram. You can also do video on both places and they both have stories on Pinterest. The difference with the story --

Wes Schaeffer:
Everybody got a story now. Hell, LinkedIn has stories now.

Alisa Meredith:
I know. That one kind of puzzles me. I haven't figured that one out yet. But on Pinterest, they last forever. So that's that's the difference there; they can get a lot of engagement. So Instagram -- so as far as what Tailwind does, we have a product called Tailwind Create, and right now it is for Pinterest, but we are also working on a product and it's in beta that will create Instagram and Facebook images for you. So it's just a really easy way, like you can put on your URL if you have one -- for Instagram you wouldn't -- and put in your title and then it will pull images from your page if there are some; you can use stock images, you can upload images, and then it will create the proper-sized images for whichever network and whichever kind of posts you are trying to create it.

It will give you literally thousands of options, which you can then filter if it's a little overwhelming and then like filter for what you're trying to do, like what kind of content, what kind of design you want. So, yeah, we're just trying to make it easier because we're noticing -- like everyone else is noticing -- that the platforms just want more and more fresh content. They want richer content formats. And so all that requires more time, right? Usually more money. So wherever we can find a way to make part of it faster, we're going to try to help.

Wes Schaeffer:
Yeah. And the dimensions match how it appears, right? Because somebody says, I just got one picture. I'm not mess with that, but we're it's we're in the edutainment space, right? We're trying to be funny, entertaining. We're trying to stand out in a noisy world.

Alisa Meredith:
Yeah. And typically on Instagram, usually the last text on your image, the better; right? Because a lot of times that the context will come from your caption. There's always exceptions. But on Pinterest, you tend to see more text on the image because you don't see the caption underneath. In the feed or search results you'll see the image itself, plus the very short title. So what you want to do is kind of tell people what they're going to see on the image itself and then underneath, like why they want to go see it.

So I'm not repeating those things; whereas on Instagram the photo could be used just to kind of evoke that connection or that feeling you want them to have. And then more the context would be in your caption. So you don't generally want to crosspost, although you can, especially with quote images. Quote images can do really, really well on Pinterest. You just have to consider, are those people going to be clicking on my quote images because they really want my product or my service and join my email list; or is it just because they want to collect it because it's a cool idea for later? It might be better just on Instagram, but you can always try.

Wes Schaeffer:
All right. Interesting. So are there -- can you overdo it on these platforms? I mean, is one a day enough? Do I need to do 10 a day on Instagram and three a week on Pinterest? I mean, Twitter, you know, they'll say go every hour because a tweet's just gone; right? Facebook, maybe once a day. Hey, so what the hell? Who's keeping track of this etiquette?

Alisa Meredith:
[chuckles] So with Instagram, it kind of has to do a little bit with what you've trained your audience to expect; right? So if they're getting through week and you go to three a day, that could turn some people off and you might lose people who really did like your content; it was just a little too much. So kind of experiment up and down and see where your sweet spot is. Once a day, good idea -- story posts on Instagram, I don't know, Wes, but if I see someone's story and the little dashes and how many frames are in their story, if they're so small, I can't even tell, I'm probably going to swipe through. It's just too much; right?

On Pinterest, I mean, you can do five to 10 a day if you have that much content. You can create more than one image for one piece of content, which tends to work well. But what you don't want to do is spam the platform, because Pinterest knows that what Pinterest users are excited about is this brand new, fresh idea. So if you're just regurgitating the same thing over and over again, it's just going to get less and less reach.

So try to kind of refresh your images, even think about, OK, I know this is a search engine. I know my regular audience really responded well to my recipe for this garden cherry bourbon smash; like, they really liked this recipe. When it came out, I saw it so much I had to try it. I liked it too. But who else could I reach? Is there another audience that I wasn't specifically targeting with that just straight "Here's a recipe. Here's what it's called. Here's what's in it." Well, maybe there is.

Maybe there is an audience that's planning a wedding. So you could have, like, wedding cocktails -- like, the best wedding cocktail for 2021, and that could be the same recipe, same piece of content, although you'd want to update it on your website so it mentioned something about using it for a wedding cocktail so there's still that continuity there and you're giving people what they expect. But just trying a different angle to appear in a different search and appeal to a different audience can be really helpful.

Wes Schaeffer:
Mm-hmm. Can I do this on the side? I mean, look, I'm a chiropractor, I'm a general contractor; I need some social media wiz? Good grief. I'm not even going to mess with it. Never mind. It's just not worth it's too hard. It's too expensive.

Alisa Meredith:
Well, okay, but your competition might be doing it. So what I would do -- a chiropractor and contractor, those are also tough ones for Pinterest; much easier sell for Instagram because you can easily reach that local audience. On Pinterest a local audience is harder because what you're going to do is you're going to attract a lot of people who are like, oh, this Wes guy builds the best houses; I want him to build this house for me. But I live in Michigan; right? So the easiest way to succeed on Pinterest is if you have something that's widely available nationwide or even more broadly than that.

But if you do, go and see if your competitors are doing it. Go look at your Google Analytics. See if you're getting traffic from Pinterest, because if you are, it means other people are already pinning your content. So they're saying it belongs on Pinterest. If they're saying it belongs on Pinterest, then it probably does. That doesn't have to take that much time because, yes, it has some social aspects to it, but it isn't one of those things where I just posted to Instagram, I kind of go comment and I got to reply to everything. It's just you kind of just put it out there like you do when you publish a blog posts and see who finds it. You can do this.

Wes Schaeffer:
How are they -- how are they visiting me if I've barely posted? You know, maybe some of my listeners don't even have a Pinterest account; would they still be getting traffic from Pinterest?

Alisa Meredith:
They might. It's funny. I've gotten calls from people saying I never really thought about Pinterest for my business, but I was looking at my Google Analytics and I'm getting so much traffic from Pinterest. How is that happening? Well, it's happening because other people are going to your website, they're finding your ideas interesting and inspiring, and they're saving them to their own Pinterest boards for later. So then other people are seeing your content because they have shared it to Pinterest and maybe they're sharing it. So it just, it grows and grows, maybe without you doing anything at all. So just imagine if you were creating images that are optimized for Pinterest, how much better it could be.

Wes Schaeffer:
Right. Yeah, everybody says they want more traffic. It's like, but they don't want to market, they don't want to write, and they don't want to pay for ads -- like, what's left?

Alisa Meredith:
Yeah. Unfortunately, you've got to do something. Yes. And to me, Pinterest is one of the lower lift. If you're looking at that social content, the work is in the creation side. And again, that's why we made Tailwind Create, is to kind of help with that part of it, that and the scheduling so you can kind of spread it out over time.

Wes Schaeffer:
So with Tailwind Create, would that replace something like Canva?

Alisa Meredith:
It could. I think -- I mean, Canva has its place, right? It's great for presentations and rÈsumÈs and all that kind of stuff. You have a tremendous amount of content you can create there. What Tailwind Create was designed for was to create social images quickly.

So in the process of making this thing, we talked to a lot of people who use social media marketing to promote their businesses. And on average, they say it takes about 15 minutes to create a Pin design. So after Tailwind Create was running for a while, we went and looked at how long it was taking people to make images in Tailwind Create. It was taking 1.8 minutes for design. So it's designed for a very specific purpose and it works well for that purpose.

Wes Schaeffer:
Very cool. Yeah, you get a free trial, right? No credit card, so that's cool.

Alisa Meredith:
Yeah. And you can use Tailwind Create with that free trial, and even though the limits on Pinterest is 100 pins and on Instagram is 30 posts, even after your trial runs out, you can still use Tailwind Create.

Wes Schaeffer:
Okay. Any tips or tricks getting started? Is it pretty -- pretty obvious thing to dove in and just commit some time to it?

Alisa Meredith:
Yeah. We have a really great video on YouTube, "Mastering Tailwind for Pinterest" and then "Mastering Tailwind for Instagram" and then "Mastering Tailwind Create." Those would be my suggestion, is to start there. We also have an amazing customer support team -- customer success team, rather, and that's really what they're there for, is to help you get success, not just to figure out the product, but to actually get success in your marketing. So they're happy to help out as well.

One of the cool things we do is we have a smart schedule. So we kind of analyze your account and your followers and when they're most likely to be on and engaged. And we'll suggest a schedule for you for either Instagram or Pinterest that will be optimized to that. That is important. And even though Pinterest, yes, search and discovery engine, getting your content to people when they're likely to engage is super-important to help it spread.

Wes Schaeffer:
Right. I mean, Pinterest has all the boards and everything. Instagram is more straightforward; is that --

Alisa Meredith:
In a way, although they have so many different kinds of content types now, it's hard to keep track. You got Reels, IGTV, Stories, posts, Carousel posts, videos. There's always something new to keep up with.

Wes Schaeffer:
Are there videos on Pinterest?

Alisa Meredith:
Yes, there are videos on Pinterest and they actually perform really, really well. So if you can create videos --and it's not just any video; right? So a lot of times people will do like they'll add an animated arrow or something to try to catch people's attention. That might work a little bit, but what really works is a step-by-step how to show somebody how to do something. And we did a really deep dive into some pins that got over 5000 saves -- so that's a ton of distribution for your content, basically -- in January of this year. And looking at the videos, just manually clicking on each one and looking at the videos, there were a ton of TikTok videos. So repurposing your video can really work.

However, as soon as we noticed that, Pinterest came out and said sharing content that was made for one platform directly to Pinterest could result in reduced distribution. So if you're going to -- you know that Instagram already did that, right? So they said if you're going to use TikToks and Reels in other places, we're going to kind of limit the distribution on that because we don't really want to give them that free advertising, which totally makes sense. But there are already apps that you can remove that watermark. So remove your watermark and share it to Pinterest because video pins do really well.

Wes Schaeffer:
Are there any, like, absolute no-no's? Because I know there's a lot of people like me, they're probably just going to dive in. So here's a picture. Here's video. Oh, crap. I just did what? You know. I mean, if you're just putting out good stuff and you're honest about it, I mean, you're not really going to blow anything up; right? Jack your count up and --

Alisa Meredith:
And I mean, the biggest thing to look out for is appearing spammy. So sharing the same pin over and over and over and over and over again, which you're not going to do; right? But that sort of thing used to work years and years ago. Like, it's the same way that Google evolved as a search engine. It used to work to kind of spam and have some link farms and all that good stuff; right? And then, of course, Google got smart and ended that.

Well, Pinterest is very similar. It used to work to share the same image over and over and over and over again. And now it just doesn't. So providing that value -- quality over quantity, just the basic common sense rules of marketing apply.

Wes Schaeffer:
Yeah. Seek to serve.

Alisa Meredith:
Exactly.

Wes Schaeffer:
Put good stuff out there and you'll dial it in.

Alisa Meredith:
That's right.

Wes Schaeffer:
And don't worry too much, because hell, they're probably change the rules, and so --

Alisa Meredith:
[chuckles] You know what? They do, they will, they all will, but it always comes down to a good experience for the user. So if you can give that, you're going to have your greatest chance for success.

Wes Schaeffer:
Yeah. So I'm linking to you on your Twitter; linking to Tailwind, so it's just Tailwindapp.com.

Alisa Meredith:
That's the one. We've got a pretty great blog over there too.

Wes Schaeffer:
And it's "app" with two Ps, Tailwindapp.com. So dive in and get you some, huh?

Alisa Meredith:
Ye,s please. And you know, every year we see these surveys of what is your most important social channel? And it's always Facebook, Facebook, Facebook. And those of us who understand the power of Pinterest marketing are like, should we tell them or should we just keep it to ourselves? But you know, that wanting to help always wins out. There is a huge opportunity there for people to grow their traffic, but especially that awareness. With those 97 percent unbranded searches, it's a huge opportunity there, even if you don't have the budget or the 10 years of business behind you for people to experience you for the first time.

Wes Schaeffer:
Well, and what that means is that the little guys can compete with the big guys.

Alisa Meredith:
You bet. Absolutely.

Wes Schaeffer:
But no hashtags.

Alisa Meredith:
No. You don't need hash tags, Wes. Just write a little two-sentence keyword-rich description and a really motivating title in which you do not use the word "click" -- that would be the one "don't do this thing" that I've heard Pinterest say rather recently is when you're writing your your titles, don't use the word "click." Basically, what they're telling us is don't don't be click-baity. But you weren't going to do that anyway. You weren't going to do that.

Wes Schaeffer:
No. I don't think I've ever done it on Pinterest, but I've used it in fits and starts.

Alisa Meredith:
Yeah, it might work on other platforms. A lot of things that work on other platforms won't work on Pinterest. Just try to keep it positive, accessible, inspiring, and you'll do great.

Wes Schaeffer:
Yeah. Okay, cool. Well, this has been great.

Alisa Meredith:
Thank you. I enjoyed it too.

Wes Schaeffer:
It's happy hour for you, huh? Closing in.

Alisa Meredith:
Oh, it is. Almost 5:00.

Wes Schaeffer:
I got to let you go. I see you up-and-down sipping -- you think I didn't notice. I know.

Alisa Meredith:
[laughs] You did. Yeah.

Wes Schaeffer:
What's in that cup? That's right.

Alisa Meredith:
Would you really like to know?

Wes Schaeffer:
Look --

Alisa Meredith:
It's blueberries and raspberries and blackberries in water. It's quite good.

Wes Schaeffer:
That's kind of fancy. Good grief.

Alisa Meredith:
It is fancy, isn't it? I was feeling fancy today.

Wes Schaeffer:
I mean, I text my kids, they bring me some, like, warm water from the dog bowl. I mean, you got fancy stuff. Wow. [chuckles] You think they'd be nicer to me, right?

Alisa Meredith:
You would.

Wes Schaeffer:
I mean, I created them; I put a roof over their head; I bought them a dog.

Alisa Meredith:
I know. You don't have to tell me. I understand.

Wes Schaeffer:
Bunch a little ingrates [laughs] I'm sending them to you. All right? Get ready.

Alisa Meredith:
Only if I can send you my four cats and geriatric dog.

Wes Schaeffer:
[chuckles] All right. Let's trade. I'm going to send you five and a half kids. That's what I still have at home.

Alisa Meredith:
Five and a half; that should be interesting.

Wes Schaeffer:
Yeah. You'll get Matthew half the time. He's kind of out.

Alisa Meredith:
Well, congrats on half way out. Yeah, it's a good start.

Wes Schaeffer:
Have one and a half kids out of the house.

Alisa Meredith:
Excellent. Yes. I did remember you had quite a few -- quite a few children. Full time job?

Wes Schaeffer:
No, not what I was thinking.

Alisa Meredith:
You know you love it.

Wes Schaeffer:
They don't come with receipts. Like, I've tried returning them.

Alisa Meredith:
To where? Where would you return them?

Wes Schaeffer:
I mean, Wal-Mart; anybody that would take them. But I mean, nobody would take them.

Alisa Meredith:
Did you try L.L Bean? Because they have the best return policy.

Wes Schaeffer:
I'm going to their Pinterest account and see if they --.

Alisa Meredith:
Do it. I bet they have gorgeous pins. I have to go look now.

Wes Schaeffer:
Like this old joke, I told my kids this weekend they're adopted, and they all started crying, really, really? I said, yeah, pack your stuff up because they'll be here at noon to pick you up. [chuckles] They didn't like that one.

Alisa Meredith:
No, I bet they didn't. You got groans, eye rolls, and walking away in disgust. [chuckles]

Wes Schaeffer:
I got Dad jokes for days.

Alisa Meredith:
I love dad jokes. They're the best.

Wes Schaeffer:
Did you know that alligators can grow up to 15 feet?

Alisa Meredith:
I did not.

Wes Schaeffer:
But most of them only have four.

Alisa Meredith:
Oh, my word. What'd you say about letting me go, Wes?

Wes Schaeffer:
If you give teachers guns, if you arm the teachers, do librarians get silencers? I mean, I'm just -- I need to know that. I need to know. You think about that and you let me know.

Alisa Meredith:
It's like deep thoughts with Wes. I think that should go on a quote pin first -- first pin after this interview.

Wes Schaeffer:
Do you know where Napoleon keeps his armies?

Alisa Meredith:
I do not.

Wes Schaeffer:
In his sleevies [sic]. [laughs]

Alisa Meredith:
[chuckles' I don't even get it.

Wes Schaeffer:
You should have had connectivity issues and canceled this interview. I told you, don't do it, don't do it.

Alisa Meredith:
[laughs] Oh, boy, oh, boy. So Wes, let me ask you something.

Wes Schaeffer:
Uh-oh. Hey, I'm doing the interviewing here.

Alisa Meredith:
I know. And turn around. What do you think? Are you going to do something with Pinterest for your business?

Wes Schaeffer:
I have tried.

Alisa Meredith:
Yeah?

Wes Schaeffer:
I've tried.

Alisa Meredith:
Have you really?

Wes Schaeffer:
I need to get help. I need a lot of help.

Alisa Meredith:
Well, this isn't therapy.

Wes Schaeffer:
I only have one problem.

Alisa Meredith:
Okay. What's the problem?

Wes Schaeffer:
It's very hard to pronounce. It's this really long Latin -- I mean, it's very hard.

Alisa Meredith:
Okay. Try me.

Wes Schaeffer:
So, you know, so I've got a ton of content, so that it lends itself to me very well. I've just got to schedule it. I've got a new assistant I'm using that's working out quite well. Maybe she can help me. I brought her and help me with HubSpot and the website and graphic design. She's good with -- very technical so she can dive in. She's making templates and, like everything, everybody. I got a lot of irons in the fire. And it's like, you know, making this a priority. It's like on the one hand -- we all struggle with this; right?

On the one hand, business is good. So, you know, make hay while the sun shines. Conversely, building your content and a strong presence on these platforms is going to help keep business good right now. So it's like I get it, I get it, I get it. And it's like, where are you going to be? You've got only so many hours in the day; you can't have multiple priorities.

Alisa Meredith:
That's true.

Wes Schaeffer:
You have one priority, right? So you got picked that and then you rank order after that. So I don't know. But every time I do log into Pinterest, I like it. I do like it. It's just I need to make it more of my routine.

Alisa Meredith:
Yeah. You know, and if you're a new person can go into two and create and make three or four pins a week, 1.8 Minutes each, you know, that starts getting your content out.

Wes Schaeffer:
Well, we have started, so it'll be like a month or so before this episode goes live. But a couple of months ago, I had someone else on Pinterest and I started -- I did -- it is now part of the workflow of the podcast to make Pinterest art and make a post. So she's been catching up on that. So we are incorporating it more and I'm seeing some results. So the long answer is yes. The plan is to do more Pinterest. Like everybody, you know, building this into the new workflow is --

Alisa Meredith:
I do understand, believe me.

Wes Schaeffer:
Always -- I'm using a different shopping platform and just found out, oh, we weren't getting notifications that there were orders. Oops.

Alisa Meredith:
Oh, that's kind of important.

Wes Schaeffer:
Fortunately, it was only for one product, but it was, like, oh hell, these orders came in on my birthday -- on the 3rd -- nine days ago. Unfortunately they were all from -- I literally know the three guys that ordered. "Hey, I'm a dumb ass. I'm sending it. All right? I'm not hoarding your money." So there's always something.

Alisa Meredith:
Yes, there is. Yeah. And I admit I understand the power of Instagram, but I just -- you know, I post flowers, dogs, cats and paintings. I just -- you can only do so much.

Wes Schaeffer:
Yeah. But I do like the point you made about the positivity; right? There is -- there's just crap everywhere. Everybody's angry on Twitter and snarky. Instagram is better, but there's still some political hacks. Facebook, I've unfollowed or muted so many people.

Alisa Meredith:
Yeah. Me too.

Wes Schaeffer:
So maybe I just need to get into my Zen state on Pinterest. Maybe I'll find my Zen state on Pinterest.

Alisa Meredith:
I would love to hear about that.

Wes Schaeffer:
Know what I'm saying?

Alisa Meredith:
I do. Oh yes, I do. Yeah. All right.

Wes Schaeffer:
So if I follow you, I'm going to get cat tips?

Alisa Meredith:
If you follow me, you're probably going to get marketing tips, because all of my cat tips -- my painting stuff is public now because I'm trying to -- I'm doing some testing to see how certain things work. But, yeah, all my other stuff that personally interested in is hidden. So you won't have to worry about that.

Wes Schaeffer:
All right.

Alisa Meredith:
Unless you want some curly hair tips, in which case I can make that public for you.

Wes Schaeffer:
This is a month old and it's long, so, no.

Alisa Meredith:
No, you're set? Okay.

Wes Schaeffer:
I'll share it with my daughters. So I let them know.

Alisa Meredith:
All right.

Wes Schaeffer:
I'll let them know. And the app, does it work equally as well on a desktop as a smartphone, or is it optimized to do all on a phone?

Alisa Meredith:
It is -- most people use it on desktop because usually what you do is sit down for half an hour, get all your Instagram Pinterest done for the week. You can do a lot of it on mobile, especially on the Instagram side. But yeah, that's it. For me, I mean, I'm at my desk all the time anyway, so, yeah, it's a better experience on desktop.

Wes Schaeffer:
Cool. Okay. All right. I'm signing up.

Alisa Meredith:
Awesome. All right. I'll see you over there.

Wes Schaeffer:
Cool, cool.

Alisa Meredith:
Thank you, Wes.

Wes Schaeffer:
And have a happy happy hour.

Alisa Meredith:
Thanks. I will.

Wes Schaeffer:
All right. Thanks for coming to the show.

Alisa Meredith:
Bye.

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